ok all, i need some feedback to solve a few problems on my first non-Amazing Still distillation.

turbo 48
17 kg pure cane sugar
fermented 7 days, sparkalloid and 6 days clearing


setup:

column packing - 7 SS scrubbers from bottom of column up, and one roll of copper mesh at the top just below crossed cooling lines. packed somewhat tight ,as i have never packed a column before, this is how i would describe it,.

boiling chamber - approx. ~24L mash ,not thinking it thru very well, i have no gravities to report, but i have made prolly 10-12 exactly identical sugar mashes with each being between 17 - 19% abv, at an assumed 17+%abv

cooling line/system - jacketed condenser ,the brewhaus 2' PSII column, with the 'modified' cooling line diagram ,http://tvbeer.com/cool1.htm, minus the wort chiller. beginning water temp was 59F.

the first run run-down:
turned on both 1500W internal heater elements to full power, cooling water off ,on once/twice to check the seal at joints/tighten loose connections, then right back off,. starting therm ,placed in top-of-column-bung so as the have the probe EXACTLY at the height of condesnser take-off, temp of 21C ,gonna use C here and F on cooling line,. approx 30 mins later ,again, wont make this mistake again, but didnt RECORD any times as i went, the vapor temp jumped up and up and hit the 70's C, so i kicked the cooling on and shut off to zero one heating element. turned the other element down to about 3/4 power ,~1200W,. distillate began collecting into a 1 qt. mason jar, smelling rather rank ,heads im guessing, but still being crystal clear and steady ,~2-3 drops/sec,. the column vapor temp steady at 75-76 C. cooling water began to warm slightly ,60+F,. turned the heating element up a tad to ~1300+W. here, the collection rate went to about 4-5 drops/sec ,almost a THIN steady stream,. collected first 200 mL and it smelled AWFUL ,but was clear,, i threw out to elimnate methanol issue ,i know turbo is 'LOW' meth, but just to be safe,. continued collecting at same rate, but with an increasingly pleasing ethanol odor ,cleaner, but still strong,. cooling water temp climbed here to ~65F ,i am about to begin swapping frozen two liters now,. collection rate remaining steady, and column temp holding at 76-77F, power at ~1300W, i collected the next 200 mL, swapped jars to test this 200. it tested at 93% abv, with a clean ethanol smell to it. this continued up to 1000 mL ,1L, collected. water temp is not 70+ but holdiing 75 F or lower with bottle swapping. at around 1300mL, the temp 'jumped' to 79C and the collection rate began 'surging' from <1 d/s to thick stream ,both rates clear but gaining an increasing nasty odor,. in about 5 mins, i collected 400+ mL, smelling sour but still clear. at this point, i turned the power down to about half of one element, ~750W. at this point, the vapor temp plummeted to 70C and condesation/collection CEASED. but a 'burping' noise began being noticeable near the column base and expanding into the whole column. i turned the power back up to ~1200W here. the burping continued and the distillate collection continued surging. at around the 1500mL level, the surges became stronger and turned to the color of the mash. column began wildly swinging between 70C & 79/80C. burping began to cause a slight tremble in the column. kept power constant ~1200W, cooling water ~70-75F. for the next 1+L, this surging cont and produced a 75%abv, mash-colored, FOUL smelling collection. kept separate and shut still down at this point.

i would love your opinions/suggestions/RFI's.

another note, a roommate and i cussed and discussed this event and it possible causes/solutions.

P1, column packing was too tight and it flooded
P2, heat input was too high and forced tails & lower thru
P3, something else completely beyong my knowledge

S0, add sour/bad distillate back into boiler for another go 'round.
S1, unpack column and tease scrubbers A LOT. this reduced it down to 4 scrubbies and one copper plug
S2, more consistent heat with which i will err on the side of too low and approach the right setting from the cool side
S3, post on the forum after this second try for other possible ideas.

this repacked, less-anxious heat control, second-run went much the same way. one crucial difference however was that the gurgling/burping happened only near the bottom of the column and the surging of the collection rate remained at the thick stream but still clear level. no mash came through this run and i stopped it after about 900mL collected. the proof, times, and collection rates MIRRORED EXACTLY the first run, with the same progression towards failure but a noticeably less terrible end point.

thank you for taking the time to read this HORRENDOUSLY long post and giving thought to the problems disclosed within.

i look forward to a second/third try with corrected procedures and better results!

thanks again,
Rob

Rob:

I agree with John about the bubbling situation, it was probably too much reflux. I am assuming you checked the connectors and didn't have any air leaking in anywhere. A couple of suggestions: First I would go a little lower on the heat. Once my heat is up to temp I usually turn down and run at about 750W. Next the modified cooling system works much better with the wort chiller. When the ambient temp is warm ,as opposed to when it's freezing here,, I have a fan blowing the chiller as well. This cools the water exiting the system expotentially prior to it returning back to the original pool. You don't actually have to buy a wort chiller, just to to the hardware store and buy some copper tubing and wrap it around a cornelius keg or fire extinguisher to shape it. That plus the high initial heat is probably why the water warmed up so quickly. Lastly you may want to think about using rashing rings between your scrubbers. I know there is a debate about them, but from my experience they work great, especially with your system, and are reuseable forever.

If you were getting 93% you were doing something right, I think you just have to tweak your new system a bit. Get used to running it. The more you use it the more you will get a feel for it's capabilities. Don't get frustrated, you bought a great system. Once you and it get used to each other you are going to turn out some great product.

Cheers

Robert,

Elrico is the expert on electric heat systems. I use propane and really like it a lot.

I also use a spring of very cold water and just use a constant flow. My sister has one just like yours, and I have a high capacity whick is the same principle. I just run a striipping run as fast as my condener can handle it.
If you can maintain your cooling water at a low temp. you will be able to take off at least twice the speed.

On the spirit run, I turn the water on as soon as head temp hits 50 C and turn down the flame.

I let it run at 100% reflux for a while, and then slow my cooling water down and slowly take off foreshots and heads, then I increase the heat just a touch, and collect with this column at 95%, and at exactly 72 C for my elevation, and collect a good gal./hour. When temp. hits 73 I start collecting in different jugs for each seperate deg. With the bakeing soda ans canning salt, tails are almost cut in half, and the line is very sharp and clear.

What really helps is a digital thermometer with an alarm.

Also, keep a very close eye on your output, as it is very easy to lose a lot of vapor, esp. with fluctuateing water temps. Oh yeah, insulate your column.

Every run you make will get better!

Rob:

I designed the 'modified system' with two things in mind, first to use as little water as possible, and secondly to reduce the heat exiting the column as much as possible prior to it going back into the pool, with the least amount of effort. Unfortunately we don't all have a cool stream to draw from. Living in So. Cal. for 30 years made me very wary of just running a hose through the system for four hours.

In a perfect world I would be able to cool the exiting water to the original temp prior to it going back into the pool. Of course we don't live in a perfect world, so I just tried to come up with a way to cool it as much as possible without running it through a refrigeration unit. I have a friend who bought an old school water cooler drinking fountain and he runs his exit water through it instead of a wort chiller and that keeps it very cool. He doesn't have to worry about ice bottles at all. By the way, if any of you know where I can buy one of these let me know.

Of course you can just toss ice in the pool and avoid the wort chiller, but you will use quite a bit more ice than you would with one.

Now as far as running it, the faster the water runs through the column the less heat it will pick up, so I try to run it full blast most of the time and adjust the heat temp accordingly. There are times when I do adjust the flow, but I try to keep it going as fast as possible, that's just part of the tweaking I was talking about.

I use heating coils like you do and distill with a fellow shinner who uses propane exclusively so I have been around both quite a bit. It is my opinion that the heating coils keep a more even and steady heat. I'm not knocking propane, but the flame jumps around and my buddy ends up making adjustments 6 to 1 more than I have to so I will just let that speak for itself.

One thing ,of the many, I really agree with John about is having a digital thermometer with an alarm. Mine even has a remote control for my belt. How lazy is THAT! But it does allow you a bit more freedom from watching the thermometer all the time.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

stephen:

I try to keep the flow going as fast as possible through both. The longer the water is in the column or condenser the hotter it gets. I say that bearing in mind there are times when adjusting the flow is necessary. I'm sure others will disagree with me and that's all right.

When I need to make adjustments, the first thing I adjust is my heat. If and when that doesn't achieve what I want, I go back and adjust the flow, again keeping it as fast as possible. The nice thing about my system is that using the hose splitter you can adjust the direction of the flow very easily. If you want less going to the condenser it's a simple turn of a switch.

Luckily it doesn't take a lot of adjusting. Most of the time, once you get things leveled off where you want them you can just leave them alone. You will need to check the pool temp on occasion. I do this by just sticking my finger in it. If it feels like it's warming up I toss in an ice bottle. You can get all fancy and stick a second digital thermometer with an alarm in there of course, but then you'd just be showing off. Not that that's a bad thing mind you.

An ice bottle is usually good for about 45 min to an hour. As you get to the end of the run your temp will begin to rise and you may have to toss in ice a bit more often but you know you're heading into tails so you need to be watching it a bit closer anyway.

I hope this answers your questions. If not just let me know.

Cheers!

Rob:

I crank my heaters all the way up and set my alarm to sound off when the temp goes above 50C. Once it hits 50C I know that 78C is just about a half minute away. At that point I unplug the one coil and start watching my temp and drip. At the first drip I begin pulling down the heat and flip on the water. Pretty exciting stuff. I still get a kick out of it.

The tossed out fridge may be the ticket. That is if it still cools. I had one that my daughter used at college but of course quit working by the time I got it back. Like you I would like to come up with something that will eleminate the ice totally. Lets keep working on it and sharing information.

I am meeting with a bunch of shinners Saturday up at a farm here in WV and we are doing a group distill. One of the fellows there is the guy who converted a school water cooler. I will try and get more information from him.

Cheers

Okay, we have set up PM through the forum. Please just let me know if all is working, as this is not a feature that we have used previously.

PM stands for Private Message. This allows you to directly contact another member of the forum to discuss things in private. To do so, just click on their name to bring up their information. Under their forum information will be a link to send them a PM.

Thanks Rick,

This will allow those that wish in a local area to make contact and share this great hobby of ours, with discretion. Also, for anyone traveling to or thru a certain area.

even once in a while, to ask a question too stupid or mundane to bother the whole forum.

PM's will arrive by e-mail, so you do not actually need to check anything ,other than your e-mail, that is,.