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Offline KrY0 814  
#1 Posted : Thursday, January 19, 2012 12:32:23 PM(UTC)
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when using cracked corn to make mash is there anything extra/special i need to do to it since its not technically flaiked maize..?
Offline tom smooth  
#2 Posted : Friday, January 20, 2012 9:40:46 AM(UTC)
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Been using flake maize but want cracked corn because its cheaper. I'm thinking cook it till it gets soft then let it cool to 150 before u add your malt, going to try it next week n I'll let u know
Offline scotty  
#3 Posted : Friday, January 20, 2012 10:45:18 AM(UTC)
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I have a book on making alcohol that says steep it at 120 degrees. My ex moonshiner nieghbor says till it doubles in size. Ive never done shine from corn though.:)
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#4 Posted : Saturday, January 28, 2012 1:52:16 PM(UTC)
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It gets real confusing. I was led to believe corn was not fermentable till it had been sprouted...sorta like malted barley for beer...then the local brew meister say yes corn is fermentable without sprouting. Somebody is fibbing here. Maybe the question is what has to be done to corn to make yeast like to eat it? I have about 12 gallons of cornmeal wine working. Too lazy to drive over to buy the right yeast so just used the bread making stuff. The recipe clearly say the cornmeal was not fermentable but would add flavor. I finally wind up at the home brew place where the man has distillers yeast which he said could bring it up to 20 percent within 24 hrs. I was shocked. It was less than eight bucks for a half pound looking bag which he claimed would last for years since you only used one Tablespoon per five gallon batch. Sure a pinch work just as well since that yeast multiples worse than rabbits. Now he did say it was not good for wine. Technology moves too fast.
Offline div4gold  
#5 Posted : Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:52:36 PM(UTC)
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The starch in the corn converts to sugar when a kernel sprouts. The starch will also convert by using the heat method. Once the starch has been converted to sugar the yeast will eat it up.
Offline KGB  
#6 Posted : Sunday, January 29, 2012 12:25:27 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: bigwheel Go to Quoted Post
It gets real confusing. I was led to believe corn was not fermentable till it had been sprouted...sorta like malted barley for beer...then the local brew meister say yes corn is fermentable without sprouting. Somebody is fibbing here. Maybe the question is what has to be done to corn to make yeast like to eat it?


The answer is, YES and NO and it depends on the path you take when fermenting corn. There are several things that must be addressed. I too had mixed understandings throughout the years. Only recently have I come to have a better understanding.

1. A dry, mature kernel of corn, that has not been sprouted, contains a ""starch sac"" called endosperm and the embryo.
2. For the embryo to develop (germinate .... sprout), the embryo must have food in the form of simple sugar.
3. The only way for the embryo to sprout into a plant is for the starch in the kernel to be converted to sugar and this takes enzymes (malt).

4. Dry, mature corn (shelled or dry and still on the cob) contains no enzymes which are required to convert starch to sugar but dry mature corn possesses the ability to make its own enzyme under proper conditions.
5. An enzyme is a protein that nature has designed. An enzyme is an organic catalyst that drastically accelerate a chemical reaction without ever being consumed during the reaction. An organic catalyst differs from an inorganic catalyst in various ways but the following sentence is only important to understand. An organic enzyme is a protein, and because a protein is heat sensitive, not too much heat can be used when converting starch to sugar or you WILL destroy your enzyme and conversion will immediately slow to a crawl. Hence, when converting starch to sugar, care must be taken not to exceed 150F.

The following is where ""the tree forks"" and often confuses individuals when addressing the issue of fermenting corn.

[SIZE=""4""]Let's start with fermenting cracked corn[/SIZE]


1. Cracked corn is dry, mature kernel corn that has been cracked into 6 or 8 pieces. For example ""chicken scratch"" is cracked corn.
2. The vast majority of cracked corn (by weight) is starch.
3. Starch cannot be ""eaten"" by the type of yeast we use.
4. Starch is long repeating chains of simple sugars that are connected chemically.
5. Before yeast can ""eat"" the simple sugars found in starch, the connecting chemical bonds of simple sugars that create starch must be broken in order to release all available simple sugar molecules for consumption by yeast. This is often called ""conversion"".
6. Before this converting process begins, corn (or even ground corn meal) must be gelatinized, i.e. cooked to soften the corn to a gelatin consistency. This will provide a greater surface area for enzymes to react and speed the process of conversion. It is important to note that starch does not dissolve in water therefore starch cannot be broken down into simple sugars by simply attempting to dissolve corn meal, cracked corn, or corn starch in water (be it hot or cold).

*NOTE* Cooking corn meal alone does not convert starch to sugar. Cooking will, however, cause number and size of highly organized crystalline starch regions to decrease leading to random, unorganized crystalline regions of starch. Broken hydrogen bonds create space in the crystalline structure thus allowing water to enter the space created by hydrolysis which in turn results in starch gelatinization. In no way has this converted polysaccharides to simple sugars but gelatinization improves the availability of starch for amylase hydrolysis (break down of available starch to simple sugar in the presence of an appropriate enzyme).

7. Once cracked corn (or corn meal) has been cooked (gelatinized) this ""gelatinous mess"" is ready for conversion.
8. As previously stated, conversion takes place in the presence of enzymes. Starches cannot be broken down to sugar without enzymes. If you choose to use grain as malt (little enzyme factories) rather than ""store bought stuff"" then you must prepare the grain and turn each kernel into an ""enzyme factory"".
9. Malt is best produced using Barley because it contains many different enzymes that will convert starch to sugar but for the sake of answering the question I will stick with corn. By soaking or wetting shelled corn for several days, each kernel will begin to swell. Soaking or wetting fools each kernel into believing that it's growing season.
10. Under the right conditions (water, warmth, and light) the miracle of life begins. Miraculously, Mother Nature devised a marvelous but complicated means for the tiny embryo to burst forth into life. Remember, I stated earlier that the tiny corn embryo needs simple sugars to develop and grow but all the sugar that's contained in the kernel is bound up as starch. The embryo cannot survive without food (simple sugar) and will surely die.
11. So, in the presence of all the right conditions, the little embryo begins to manufacture enzymes that leak into the starch sac and break down the starch to sugar so it will have the energy to grow and poke it head through the soil. Once the embryo grows into a young plant and makes it to the surface, all the starch in the kernel will have been converted and consumed and sunlight and nutrients in the soil and water will provide for the plant's remaining days on earth. The umbilical chord is severed when the plant makes it to the surface.
12. Now, what we want to do is capture the manufacture of enzymes in the kernel just at the right time thus capitalizing on the maximum enzyme level. If you wait too long, the embryo will have used all enzymes and starches to break free of its shell.
13. When little ""roots"" develop at the end of each kernel of corn (approximately 1/4"" long) enzyme levels are said to have reached the maximum level. It is at this time you wash the ""sprouting corn"", remove the little roots and ""hair"", grind the corn and toss it into your pot that contains gelatinized starch (cooked cracked corn or corn meal).
14. When the ground malt is added to your cooked corn, you will need to elevate the temperature of your mix to between 140F and 150F degrees. Conversely, if the malt is ready and you have just finished cooking the corn, then lower the temperature of the cooked corn to 140F to 150F degrees before adding the malt. Remember, enzymes are a protein and can be easily destroyed by heat.
15. After holding the mixture's temperature between 140F and 150F for 40 to 60 minutes, conversion from starch to sugar should be complete.
16. Conversion can be verified by removing a small amount of ""converted mix"" and placing it on a saucer and adding a drop of iodine. If starch is still present the sample will turn blue and the mix will require a little more heating time. If conversion is complete there will be no blue color.
17. Assuming conversion is complete, lower the temperature of the mix to around 80F degrees and toss in the yeast.

[SIZE=""3""]
Fermenting sprouted corn
[/SIZE]


Sprouted corn will ferment if you stop germination at the appropriate time. Remember, you want to keep the embryo from eating all the sugar that has been converted. If you allow the sprouts to get longer than the kernel of corn or greater that 1/4"", then you are losing sugar which is what the yeast needs in order to make ETOH.

When your sack(s) of corn has/have begun to sprout, wash the corn, remove roots & hair, and grind into a mush. Heat the mush for 40 to 60 minutes between 140F and 150F, cool to 80F to 85F degrees and then add yeast and allow to ferment.

*NOTE*: The reason you heat the malt and corn mix to between 140F and 150F degrees is to speed up the chemical conversion from starch to sugar in the presence of a catalyst. In theory, if you did not use heat, the reaction would still go to completion ...... but it would take much longer.

What I am about to say is purely academic and for your personal edification. With regard to organic catalyst or inorganic catalyst, I've already stated that a catalyst is used to accelerate a chemical reaction and the catalyst is not consumed during a chemical reaction. This means that as soon as the catalyst has been used to accelerate and complete a chemical reaction, it is released to be used again and again and again. So sometimes not much catalyst is necessary.

It should be interesting to point out that there is an unspoken truism in the above paragraph. Since a catalyst is used to accelerate a chemical reaction, then it's reasonable to assume that in the absence of a catalyst the chemical reaction will still go to completion but at a far slower rate. And this is true. Some complex chemical reactions may occur in the ""blink of an eye"" when accelerated by a catalyst but in the absence of the catalyst, the reaction may take years or even hundreds of years to go to completion.

KGB"
Offline tom smooth  
#7 Posted : Sunday, January 29, 2012 4:40:20 AM(UTC)
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Heating up my 24L of water to 130Fnow going to add and steep 9lbs of cracked corn for an hour at 120F and or until I feel it's gelatinized. Then I will raise the temp to 152F and add 1lb 8oz of finely crushed 6 row malted barley. That should bring temp down of mash to 150F. Cover and stir every 15 minutes for 90 minutes. I'll let ya know if the converision was a success later today.
Offline KGB  
#8 Posted : Sunday, January 29, 2012 7:58:03 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: tom smooth Go to Quoted Post
Heating up my 24L of water to 130Fnow going to add and steep 9lbs of cracked corn for an hour at 120F and or until I feel it's gelatinized. Then I will raise the temp to 152F and add 1lb 8oz of finely crushed 6 row malted barley. That should bring temp down of mash to 150F. Cover and stir every 15 minutes for 90 minutes. I'll let ya know if the converision was a success later today.


For clarification purposes (leaving nothing to chance or preventing assumptions), you have stated, ""I will raise the temp to 152F and add 1lb 8oz of finely crushed 6 row malted barley. That should bring temp down of mash to 150F"".

1. Are you not concerned that 152F might deactivate your Barely enzymes?

2. How are you calculating a 2F degree drop in temperature when malt is added?

3. Once you reach target temp of 150F degrees, will you turn off your heat source and allow for slow cooling or will you leave the heat source running, monitor the temp, stir every 15 minutes for 90 minutes and then after 90 minutes remove heat and allow the mash to cool?"
Offline tom smooth  
#9 Posted : Monday, January 30, 2012 1:40:43 PM(UTC)
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145F temp is what the distillers use. Between 150F -140F works fine. Here a good easy process if you don't want to stand and maintain that temp. Let mash mash cool to 152f when u add the malt temp will fall to 150F stir every 15 min for 90 min leaving covered temp will stay in the 140-150 range. This just worked for me on my first cracked corn mash. Bring mash to low boil for an hour turn off heat, came back 4hours later,temp was 190. Didn't have a immersion chiller so used a frozen back set in a milk jug or water. When chilled to 152F added my malted barley, temp dropped to 150F n kept above 140F for the 90 min conversion time. Next morning checked the SG of the clear yellow liquid at the top n had a 1.046SG about the same as corn maize! Added 4 cups of corn sugar to bring it up to SG of1.060 not US approved to call it whiskey but who cares lol. Started with 23L ph adjusted water 9lb of chicken scratch aka cracked corn n 1lb 8 oz of 6 row malted barley. Cracked corn is a hybrid grain with more protein but I still end up with same results as maize. Looks like it might squeeze a litter cleaner then maize, less sediment. Still working a perfect process....jimmy cracked corn and I don't care, silly question my wife asked google it lol
Offline tom smooth  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:05:26 PM(UTC)
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Jimmy cracked corn and I don't care lol go for it n let us know how u do! It's all fun but is work especially when making a fine corn breveage
Offline roostershooter7  
#11 Posted : Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:08:56 AM(UTC)
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Here's an easy thing to remember, and how I was taught by my grandad. It might not be the 'right way', but it has always worked for us.

Remember the 10 to 6 & the 7 to 3 rule.

10 pounds on your grain bill to 6 gallons of GOOD water.

7 pounds of cracked corn or meal to 3 pounds of malted grains. ~In my case it's always 2 1/2# of malted rye & 1/2# of malted 6 row barley.


If the whole malt / corn thing is still confusing you .... think of an all grain batch as a two part epoxy paint.

You need the base color (corn) and the hardener (malt). When you combine the two in the right proportions and at the right temp you get paint (wash, beer, mash).


Not to confuse the subject any more, but making corn malt is easy as pie! You just have to make sure that the sprout is at least 2" to 3" long before using it. If the sprout is any shorter than that then you don't have enough enzymes yet.
Offline Shinejunky  
#12 Posted : Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:13:06 PM(UTC)
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I use about the same recipe but I can never get the potential alcohol at more than 4%. makes real smooth good tasting stuff. Wish I could get the % a little higher. any suggestions will be welcomed (KGB) hint hint
Offline Shinejunky  
#13 Posted : Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:22:10 PM(UTC)
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Roostershooter7 Your grandad must have been good at that. that's the same recipe I've been using. makes smooth stuff.
Offline heeler  
#14 Posted : Monday, March 12, 2012 12:41:32 PM(UTC)
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Hey Shinejunky, if you got 4% in your fermenter, what proof does the product start at when your stillin it?? And what quantity of hearts do you collect?? I'm just being nosey, BigGrin
Offline KGB  
#15 Posted : Monday, March 12, 2012 8:26:08 PM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: Shinejunky Go to Quoted Post
I use about the same recipe but I can never get the potential alcohol at more than 4%. makes real smooth good tasting stuff. Wish I could get the % a little higher. any suggestions will be welcomed (KGB) hint hint


Shinejunky,

Naturally, even a slight variation from norm can often elicit a drastic, undesirable change. It's impossible to know *exactly* how you are making things because you state, "I use about the same recipe but ,,..". The ""attention grabber"" in your statement is your use of the word *about* which really could mean just about anything.

I am by no means an expert. The older I get and the more I learn, it would seem the more ignorant I become. To help me in this hobby I use the following formula to estimate how much sugar I need to produce a desired % alcohol. Before I go any further, the type yeast that is used can often make a significant difference in % alcohol. You already know this but I just had to make this statement.

The following formula is based on a generality. Since it takes about 17 grams of sucrose (table sugar) in one liter of water to make 1 % alcohol then:

% alcohol desired x 17 = grams of sugar per liter of solution (g/L)

g/L sucrose desired X US gallons desired divided by 120 = pounds of sugar needed

Example:
You wish to make 15 gallons of still beer that contains 14% abv.
How much sugar is required?

14% X 17 = 238 g/L sugar
238 g/L x 15 US gallons divided by 120 = 29.75 pounds of sugar

ANSWER: 29.75 pounds of sugar

Do NOT start with 15 gallons of water and then add sugar. This will yield the wrong specific gravity, hence, incorrect % alcohol. Instead, place a measured mark inside your container that represents the actual height of 15 gallons of water. Pour in a small amount of water and begin slowly adding your measured poundage of sugar. Use the very least amount of water necessary to dissolve 29.75 pounds of sugar (may want to warm the water while doing this). Once the desired amount of sugar has been dissolved, add water to bring your solution up to the 15 gallon mark. This should get you very close to your wishes of having 14% abv in your still beer.

As stated, yeast makes a difference. Each species of yeast has been developed to perform best between certain ranges within a specific environment. Some are poorly adapted for high % alcohol environment. Others may tolerate a high % alcohol environment but become sick and perform poorly in an environment having a low pH. Still other types may begin to perform poorly (get sick) when both the pH and % alcohol reaches levels that no longer support a salubrious life. Still others may perform best at cool temperatures while others may like a warmer climate. Regardless, any undesirable condition that makes yeast ""sick"" will basically result in slowing fermentation or stopping fermentation.

When considering % alcohol desired, you must choose the appropriate type yeast for the job. In a "nut shell" there are 5 basic types of yeast:

Baker's Yeast
Brewer's Yeast
Distiller's Yeast
Wine Yeast
Turbo Yeast (fuel yeast?)

Within the 5 basic categories of yeasts any of these will produce alcohol and there are perhaps hundreds (or more) of species in some categories developed to do various things thus your choice of yeast depends on your past experience or your eagerness to experiment with species you have never tried. If you want high % alcohol then you might consider either Brewer's Yeast or Distiller's yeast. Just recently I learned that Brewer's Yeast was basically designed to work well with grain. Turbo Yeast (a yeast basically designed to work with only sugar and water) has been touted to produce percentages of alcohol in excess of 20% in only 48 hours. Though I have never tried Turbo Yeast, others having tried Turbo Yeast have stated that it produces a bad taste. Apparently Turbo Yeast was originally developed for production of fuel-ethanol. If you have a reflux still, it has been stated that you can obtain neutral spirits from Turbo Yeast.

EC 1118 is a Wine Yeast capable of producing 18% abv. I recently had my first experience with this yeast and I'm not certain it was positive but I'm not so sure it turned out negatively. It SLOWLY fermented for three weeks and was still fermenting (starting the 4th week) when I decided to stop fermentation and begin stripping. I did not measure TG. When looking back I might should have let it ferment for a 4th week increasing the overall alcohol content of my beer. My decision to stop fermentation is an entirely different story best saved for a later time.

Starting with 16 gal of beer, stripping produced almost 3.5 gal of low wine. The spirit run (to include Heads, Hearts, and Tails) produced 1 gal & 1 pt of very high spirits (Hearts = 160 proof). I segregated Heads & Tails from Hearts and collected Heads in one container and Tails in another for future use. Tossed away the first few ounces of each run to reduce Foreshots. My main complaint with EC 1118 has been that it takes too long. Had I been making a wine, then perhaps I would have been willing to wait.

Hope this may have helped is some way.

KGB"
Offline Shinejunky  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:55:42 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: heeler Go to Quoted Post
Hey Shinejunky, if you got 4% in your fermenter, what proof does the product start at when your stillin it?? And what quantity of hearts do you collect?? I'm just being nosey, BigGrin


According to the gauge that I use 4% potential alcohol, yielded about a quart of hearts at 90 proof. Don't have a parrot so I have to check proof after the run. Oh yeah that's with a 6 gal wash. I usually throw the first 160 ml out. I run an eight gal pot still. After the first run with all grain I add 7 lbs of sugar melted back to the grain pitch yeast and run it again. The sour mash run yields a quart of 130 proof hearts."
Offline roostershooter7  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:03:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Shinejunky Go to Quoted Post
I use about the same recipe but I can never get the potential alcohol at more than 4%. makes real smooth good tasting stuff. Wish I could get the % a little higher. any suggestions will be welcomed (KGB) hint hint


It could be your water. That has a big effect on your end product. I use 100% limestone spring water coming out of a spring near my 'spot'. I tested the PH on it once, and it was right at pH 5.8, and it tastes crisp and clean with calcium.

If you water isn't right then you won't get the conversion needed to produce a good product.

Call you local water supplier and find out the PH. If it's like most municipal water sources then it's around pH 8 - 9. In this case, you can do one of two things.

Distill or buy your own distilled water that will be used to mash and add a small amount of Citric acid to it to bring it from pH 7 to between 5.4 - 6.2 OR filter your tap water through a cheap $20 water filter (Brita) and add a small amount of citric acid to drop the pH. Filtering your water will benefit the mash in two ways. It will remove any unwanted impurities and reduce, if not eliminate, flouride, chlorine, and iron.

Some less reputable old timers used sulfuric acid (Liquid Fire) to lower their water pH, but we never messed with the stuff. Our philosophy was/is that if you won't taste it or drink it ..... you don't want it in your drink!
Offline Shinejunky  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:27:22 PM(UTC)
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Good idea never checked ph of my water.I've been using well water but I know it differs from well to well. My well water taste good so figured it was good for hooch might not be the case though. Now to get that ph checked without having to buy or borrow a meter. Thanks
Offline Convictushome  
#19 Posted : Thursday, May 02, 2013 10:27:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KGB Go to Quoted Post
Shinejunky,
..........
The following formula is based on a generality. Since it takes about 17 grams of sucrose (table sugar) in one liter of water to make 1 % alcohol then:

% alcohol desired x 17 = grams of sugar per liter of solution (g/L)

g/L sucrose desired X US gallons desired divided by 120 = pounds of sugar needed

Example:
You wish to make 15 gallons of still beer that contains 14% abv.
How much sugar is required?

14% X 17 = 238 g/L sugar
238 g/L x 15 US gallons divided by 120 = 29.75 pounds of sugar

ANSWER: 29.75 pounds of sugar
............
KGB


I went fishing to figure out where you came up with the magic number of 120.

On Google I found a link that said the specific gravity with no decimal divided by 120 would give a liquids weight in lbs/gallon. So for water 1000/120=8.33 lbs
We're trying to back into the lbs of sugar needed to make an wash that will yield a specific ABV. ABV comes from OG-FG=abv% as a percentage so I love to see how you got that. I'll offer a different option that backs into it using a the assumption you can find yeast that can attenuate 14%abv down to a Final Gravity of 1.2 (my beers end up there frequently so it's a nice round terminal gravity to chase. To get 14% you'd need an original gravity of 1.127, that gives me a number that actually useful and based on things I can measure.

So 1127/120 = 9.39LBs This is how much a gallon of that OG liquid would weigh (rounded for sake of sanity)

Subtract water weight of 8.33 (again rounded for sanity)

9.39-8.33 = 1.06lbs or 480.81 Grams (rounded duh)

Grams and per liter that would be 126 g/L

Now further on you give an explanation of how to go about adding sugar to water that makes me think that somehow your math is accounting for the displacement of water by the sugar (even though it dissolves the net volume goes up right?). So I'm not criticising, I just didn't follow the math so I tried to figure it out using numbers that made sense to me as a beer brewer. I'm curious about distilling, and looking for information on cracked corn brought me to this forum to revive a year+ old thread.

What did I miss? My numbers suggest almost half the sugar you do.
Offline John Barleycorn  
#20 Posted : Thursday, May 02, 2013 1:36:58 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
I went fishing to figure out where you came up with the magic number of 120.


1 pound = 453.6 grams
1 gallon = 3.79 liters

453.6 / 3.79 = 119.7 ... or about 120

It's the conversion from grams/liter to pounds/gallon.
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