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Offline AlTheChemist  
#1 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 4:26:18 AM(UTC)
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"I'm putting together a business plan to start a micro distillery. Due to the short aging period, I'm choosing Vodka products as my first line.*

I'm looking for the cheapest source material to make a Vodka mash.*
So far the cheapest and most readily fermentable material I could think of is corn syrup, though that will not constitute Vodka.*

Processing wheat seems like a giant cost and time overhead.*

Any ideas?"
Offline scotty  
#2 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 4:36:36 AM(UTC)
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is corn syrup cheaper than sugar?
Offline scotty  
#3 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 6:00:00 AM(UTC)
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a neutral spirit should not care where the starch comes from. At least thats what i think. I really appreciate being corrected on anything and i like other opinions too. please.:)
Offline AlTheChemist  
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 6:33:41 AM(UTC)
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"Thanks for the good wishes Bigwheel.

The yuppies like a bit of after flavor to their Vodkas. That tends to come through with up-distillation (3-4 times) of a wheat wash. Though the common Vodka drinker likes a smooth, non gagging, neutral drink. high-reflux and cutting with good quality water acheves that pretty easily.

As for Corn Syrup, I doubt it would have any ill effects after fermentation and distillation. It should be a clean Dextrose to Ethanol conversion. Catch is, I think it would be considered moonshile (corn based) at that point and I dont know if i can market it as Vodka.

Any of you have any experience processing wheat?"
Offline scotty  
#5 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 6:40:34 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: bigwheel Go to Quoted Post
Same here Scotty. I am still stumbling around in the dark trying to figger out what good vodka is supposed to taste like. For personal consumption I tend to like the stuff which dont taste like anything. Not sure what the yups prefer. Best of fortunes to the aspiring commercial distiller.


Acording to what i read, no taste at all is best. I brought some heads up north for tasing. I cant really stand booze unless it is disguised in a flavored mix.
At any rate, the heads were from just before the hearts. i used them to make a mock burbon and rye by addind a drop of vanilla, some glycerine, some rye grain( i just soaked the grain in theheads) and oak chips.

Ok back to the vodka. some regular vodka drinkers enjoyed the heads and said it tasted as the vodka should???? i never told them what i did."
Offline scotty  
#6 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 6:42:17 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: AlTheChemist Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the good wishes Bigwheel.

The yuppies like a bit of after flavor to their Vodkas. That tends to come through with up-distillation (3-4 times) of a wheat wash. Though the common Vodka drinker likes a smooth, non gagging, neutral drink. high-reflux and cutting with good quality water acheves that pretty easily.

As for Corn Syrup, I doubt it would have any ill effects after fermentation and distillation. It should be a clean Dextrose to Ethanol conversion. Catch is, I think it would be considered moonshile (corn based) at that point and I dont know if i can market it as Vodka.

Any of you have any experience processing wheat?


the corn based moonshine is pot stilled not reflux stilled:)"
Offline AlTheChemist  
#7 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 6:45:18 AM(UTC)
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Experience/tips processing raw corn would be great appreciated as well.
Offline AlTheChemist  
#8 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 6:47:25 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: scotty Go to Quoted Post
the corn based moonshine is pot stilled not reflux stilled:)


Great! So technically as long as a make a neutral spirit at 80-90 proof it should still be Vodka?"
Offline John Barleycorn  
#9 Posted : Thursday, June 07, 2012 2:45:39 PM(UTC)
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"
AlTheChemist wrote:
I'm looking for the cheapest source material to make a Vodka mash.*
Well, that should certainly impress the yuppies and the ""common"" vodka drinkers alike.

AlTheChemist wrote:
I could think of is corn syrup, though that will not constitute Vodka.*
Why not? There are no requirements placed on the wash -- only the final distillate.

AlTheChemist wrote:
So technically as long as a make a neutral spirit at 80-90 proof it should still be Vodka?
You're off by about 100 proof -- at least in the U.S. You need to start with a distillate that is at 190 proof. Then there's that nagging part about ""without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color."" It has to be at least 80 proof to label it as ""vodka.""

--JB"
Offline AlTheChemist  
#10 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 6:30:53 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: bigwheel Go to Quoted Post
Just throw a little wheat in there and give it the heads right before the hearts. You should be good to go. Or you could do two labels at once..one version of each for them who might like a neutral neutral or somebody like a little finger nail polisher remover flavor. You could call one Vodka and the other one something else. If you really want to catch the wave use a cornmeal wash and peddle it as Januine White Corn Moonshine..just like Popcorn made it..cept he a little light on the sugar. That kinda stuff drives yups nuts. I know some folks who could make a good living at it working from home.


So I just throw some raw wheat in a sugar wash? Do I have to break it down using an enzyme first, s it just going to impart flavor?

As for the corn, that still leaves me with the question on how to process the corn wash (do I add sugar or use a starch to sugar conversion with corn only)."
Offline Outland  
#11 Posted : Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:15:05 AM(UTC)
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"It appears that you can pretty much make it out of anything so long as you follow US Gov't regs:

Quote:
domestic Vodkas are defined by U.S. government regulation as ""neutral spirits, so distilled, or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste or color."" Because American Vodka is, by law, neutral in taste, there are only very subtle distinctions between brands. Many drinkers feel that the only real way of differentiating between them is by alcohol content and price.


The various Euros make vodka out of all sorts of stuff,
Quote:
Vodka is the dominant spirit of Eastern Europe. It is made by fermenting and then distilling the simple sugars from a mash of pale grain or vegetal matter. Vodka is produced from grain, potatoes, molasses, beets, and a variety of other plants. Rye and wheat are the classic grains for Vodka, with most of the best Russian Vodkas being made from wheat while in Poland they are mostly made from a rye mash. Swedish and Baltic distillers are partial to wheat mashes. Potatoes are looked down on by Russian distillers, but are held in high esteem by some of their Polish counterparts. Molasses, a sticky, sweet residue from sugar production, is widely used for inexpensive, mass-produced brands of Vodka. American distillers use the full range of base ingredients.
http://www.tastings.com/spirits/vodka.html

If you go commercial US Gov't regs will tell you what you can use. They even have to OK your label, no kidding"
Offline ratflinger  
#12 Posted : Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:29:09 AM(UTC)
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"I think you'd better check with the government. Their rules will dictate how any product is sold. Bourbon must be 51% corn, by law. Wiki says that vodkas sold in the US must be greater than 40%, but I'd think you'd have to call it a neutral spirit vs a neutral grain spirit if made from any type of sugar. Apparently there is grape based vodka being sold here, which is the tailings from wine making, so I guess sugar based would be acceptable. Some EU countries are campaigning for vodka rules that stipulate only potatoes or grain may be used.

Good luck with your endeavors"
Offline ohyeahyeah  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, June 20, 2012 8:51:07 AM(UTC)
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Rye is very popular. What about rye flour? I saw a video on youtube of a micro-distillery in chicago i believe and they were using rye flour and enzymes for their wash. They are making whiskey so vodka would require more plates or running through the still multiple times.

oh heres the video, the mash is made at about the 3:30 mark of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOIG0pK0sIU
Offline John Barleycorn  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, June 20, 2012 11:46:57 AM(UTC)
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"This might help clear things up for those of us in the U.S. [COLOR=""Red""](emphasis added)[/COLOR]:
Quote:

27 CFR 5.22

(a) Class 1; neutral spirits or alcohol.

""Neutral spirits"" or ""alcohol"" are distilled spirits produced [COLOR=""Red""]from any material at or above 190° proof[/COLOR], and, if bottled, bottled at not less than 80° proof.

(1) ""Vodka"" [COLOR=""Red""]is neutral spirits[/COLOR] so distilled, or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be [COLOR=""Red""]without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color[/COLOR].

(2) ""Grain spirits"" are neutral spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain and stored in oak containers.


This is just for something that gets a label and shows up on the shelf of a legitimate business. But if you can call it vodka somewhere in the world, then that's good enough for me. :)

Regards,
--JB"
Offline ohyeahyeah  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, June 20, 2012 2:42:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: bigwheel Go to Quoted Post
Very interesting movie..thanks. Now on the rye the lady said it had been distilled 4 times or maybe equivalent. Think vodka take more times? Looks like a person could follow the same process using wheat flour to make it dont it?


I would think you would want a 10 plate column for one pass vodka plus charcoal filtration of the distilate. Yeah i wonder the same about wheat flour. Of course you would want the unbleached non-enriched variety. Probably find it at the hippy store.

Just to note if you are running a packed column like the brehaus and getting 95% the distilate is acutally distilled dozens of times through the column.
Offline NewYawk  
#16 Posted : Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:33:50 AM(UTC)
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I am going to be doing a lot of different "vodka" recipes in my reflux. The initial mash appears to impart very subtle flavors which are hard to detect. I would think one of the most important ingredients would be the water you cut it down to 80 - 90 proof with. Tap waters and bottled waters seem to have different characteristics and they could play with the nuetrals final taste. This is all my own twisted theory though and will update when I have the first few batches
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#17 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2014 5:42:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: AlTheChemist Go to Quoted Post
I'm putting together a business plan to start a micro distillery. Due to the short aging period, I'm choosing Vodka products as my first line.*

I'm looking for the cheapest source material to make a Vodka mash.*
So far the cheapest and most readily fermentable material I could think of is corn syrup, though that will not constitute Vodka.*

Processing wheat seems like a giant cost and time overhead.*

Any ideas?


I hope you have some deep pockets. Going legal is not cheap by any means. Your state's laws and the federal laws will be different in terms of Vodka. Vodka has to be neutral in flavor and either grain or starch based. This changes if you're planning on adding any flavors to your final product. One of the best ingredients for vodka is Potatos.


Originally Posted by: ratflinger Go to Quoted Post
I think you'd better check with the government. Their rules will dictate how any product is sold. Bourbon must be 51% corn, by law. Wiki says that vodkas sold in the US must be greater than 40%, but I'd think you'd have to call it a neutral spirit vs a neutral grain spirit if made from any type of sugar. Apparently there is grape based vodka being sold here, which is the tailings from wine making, so I guess sugar based would be acceptable. Some EU countries are campaigning for vodka rules that stipulate only potatoes or grain may be used.

Good luck with your endeavors


^ This. He also has to get a COLA (Cerificate Of Label Approval) which could take weeks.
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