 Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 7/25/2009(UTC)
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BTW GRYPHON-- i saw a tv movie years ago called gryphon. it was about a magical school teacher.
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 Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/22/2012(UTC)
Posts: 22
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"John, Thanks for the reply, and bear with me please. What is 10%? I assume alcohol? I assume 22 L is about 5.5 gal. The Internet tells me there is 3785 ml per gallon. If you run 600-900 ml per hour thats 4.2 hrs. to run a gallon. Multiplying that times my 5.5 or 6 gallons = 25 hours or so. Your rate of 10-15 ml's is the same as 2-3 teaspoons per minute which I try and hold. So why am I confused? Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn  gryphon,
First, congrats on your new propane burner.
A 48 hour run is a very, very long run. My pot still spirit runs with a 22 L wash at 10% and a 1500w hotplate took me about 10 - 11 hours from power on. I only did a few of these runs so I could see what the machine would produce when I ran it very slow ... but nowhere near 48 hours.
Now that you have propane you may decide you never want to use your hotplate again. But pull it out of the trash. You can disable the thermostat and use a power controller (router speed controller, variac, etc.). Your hotplate may come in handy if you're low on gas and don't have time to get your tank filled.
When you run your pot still, don't try to hold the temperature constant. Try to control your collection rate by adjusting the power. If you collect too fast, you'll get that ""smearing"" that people talk about (heads and tails smear into your hearts). The temperature is going to change throughout the run ... this is normal ... and you really can't control it.
That's 10 - 15 mL per minute (600 - 900 mL per hour) which sounds reasonable. But at that rate you should only be collecting for less than four hours ... even if you run it all the way down (for a wash in the neighborhood of 10% abv).
Q: Did your wash finish fermenting? "
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
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Originally Posted by: gryphon What is 10%? I assume alcohol? Correct. 10% alcohol by volume (abv). It helps to have an estimate of how much alcohol is in your wash. You can get an estimate by using a hydrometer. Originally Posted by: gryphon If you run 600-900 ml per hour thats 4.2 hrs. to run a gallon. Multiplying that times my 5.5 or 6 gallons = 25 hours or so. Your math is correct, but it doesn't work that way. If your 6 gallon wash contained 10% alcohol, you would have 0.6 gallons of ethanol in your wash (that's about 2270 mL of ethanol). When you start collecting, you might see something like this (this is just an example with easy numbers): Jar 1: 500 mL 70% = 350 mL EthOH Jar 2: 500 mL 65% = 325 mL EthOH Jar 3: 500 mL 60% = 300 mL EthOH ... and so on By way of a real example, 22 L 10% wash (2.2 L ethanol). After about 7 hours of collecting, I ended up with 2 L 72% (that's a _very_ slow 285 mL/hour). So I was able to extract about 1.44 L of ethanol (along with heads/tails). I only did these long runs a few times so I could see for myself what the machine would actually produce. In any case, the amount of time a run takes will depend on a bunch of things. At the end of the day, your collection rate, the percent abv of what you collect, and how far down you take it (in terms of % abv) will determine how long your run will last. Make sense? --JB
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Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/22/2012(UTC)
Posts: 22
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"Thanks JB starting to make sense. I have a hydrometer the .6 makes sense because I get about 3 quarts of product that registers about 80%. I will have to learn to talk in terms of metric measure (I'll work on that). By you running this stuff 2 L in 7 hours, I could not be getting 10-15 ml per minute or I would have been done. I must be cooking too slow. I will have to actually measure the output next time to see if my estimate equals my actual output. I was wondering how much product you get from a 6 gallon batch but you have answered that, and confirmed my production is average. I am still stunned about how you can do a run in 7 hours. I know I have spent all day, night and well into the next day with it. Has to be running it too slow. You think? One thing in answer to your question, ""Did your wash finish fermenting""? I let it ferment to what instructions I am folowing say. How do you make that determination? Thanks for spending the time with me on this. By the way for scotty's benefit a gryphon is a lion with the head of an eagle. Legend has it they were used to guard valuable things! Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn Correct. 10% alcohol by volume (abv). It helps to have an estimate of how much alcohol is in your wash. You can get an estimate by using a hydrometer.
Your math is correct, but it doesn't work that way. If your 6 gallon wash contained 10% alcohol, you would have 0.6 gallons of ethanol in your wash (that's about 2270 mL of ethanol). When you start collecting, you might see something like this (this is just an example with easy numbers):
Jar 1: 500 mL
70% = 350 mL EthOH
Jar 2: 500 mL
65% = 325 mL EthOH
Jar 3: 500 mL
60% = 300 mL EthOH
... and so on
By way of a real example, 22 L
10% wash (2.2 L ethanol). After about 7 hours of collecting, I ended up with 2 L
72% (that's a _very_ slow 285 mL/hour). So I was able to extract about 1.44 L of ethanol (along with heads/tails). I only did these long runs a few times so I could see for myself what the machine would actually produce.
In any case, the amount of time a run takes will depend on a bunch of things. At the end of the day, your collection rate, the percent abv of what you collect, and how far down you take it (in terms of % abv) will determine how long your run will last.
Make sense?
--JB "
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/27/2012(UTC)
Posts: 526
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Hi Gryphon and welcome aboard. It sounds to me as if you are trying to run a pot still like a reflux. My ABV on a slow pot still run is between 50% and 70% and it takes about 4 to 4 1/2 hours. Mind you that is a 6 gallon wash run with propane.
My slow reflux runs take about 10 to 11 hours producing an ABV of 92% to 94%. If I make a fast relux run it will take between 6 to 8 hours with end results being around 85% to 89%.
Slow reflux runs = better neutral, less heads and tails mixed in, along with a higher ABV. So to answer your question, reflux runs take longer.
With propane turn your heat up high to start your boil. Should'nt take more than 1/2 hour or so to get there. Once there turn your heat down low enough to keep it just producing product. Should be the same for pot or reflux.
Only use tower AND condenser water for reflux still. Control your flow rate with the tower water flow in reflux.
Use ONLY condenser water for pot still.
Between the good advice JB and Scotty have given you I don't know if this helps any but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
Hope you get it running faster and have some fun with it.
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Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/22/2012(UTC)
Posts: 22
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"Thank you Bushy. Your comments are very helpful as were those of your two predecessors. After talking with my son who assists me, I have been convinced I exaggerated the time it took and more than likely it was more like 16-18 hours (still too long). After having considered all the comments, I have concluded our estimate of from 2-3 teaspoons (10ml - 15ml/ minute) must have been considerably lower. Next batch, I will take actual measurements for wwhile so that I know what 10ml-15ml per minute looks like. I must agree with John Barleycorn that if you do the math it should come out to 600-900 ml per hour and if that is so and a quart is 946 ml's, I should be done in about 4 hours and I should have produced 2 1/2 quarts or so of product. I am obviously cookin too slow. I distill twice and the only good thing is the end result is about 80-85% ethanol.
Thanks and I hope to learn more."
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
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gryphon,
I've found that it helps me to keep notes on all of my runs. Try collecting, say, 250 mL at a time -- into a glass measuring cup or similar. Write down the time that you finish collecting each sample, then measure and record the abv, and perhaps write down the current temperature as well. It's a good way to get a feel for where you are in the run. Then a day, a week, or a month later, you can always compare one run against another ... especially if something turns out different than you expected.
--JB
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/27/2012(UTC)
Posts: 526
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Just to give you a general guide line 4 drops per second = 1.5 to 2 tsp teaspoons per minute. I usually collect 4 to 6 drops per second in the beginning of a pot run. The volume increases as the temp increases and will become a fairly steady stream until the alcohol becomes more depleted.
somewhere around 192 to 194 degrees is when you start getting into tails.
Have Fun
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Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/22/2012(UTC)
Posts: 22
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"10-4. I recorded the first run but not the second. Also, my information was different. I will implement your suggestion. How about checking to see if it is fully fermented, what did you mean by that?
Thanks"
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Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/22/2012(UTC)
Posts: 22
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"Bushy,
I missed that 192 F degree to 194 F degree part. The highest temps I had it run up to was 94 degrees centigrade to 95 degrees centigrade I think that is the same temp as your in Fahrenheit. I always thought it was running too fast then and backed off."
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Rank: Guest
Groups: Guests
Joined: 2/10/2002(UTC)
Posts: 5,254
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Hey Gryphon looks like you got caught in a Tsunami of milliliters..centigrades and other inconsequential European math factoids. Seems like from the Golden Book encyclopedia..which come free from Chopping at Safeway the half lion critters was called Griffins. Are you prehaps using the Jolly Olde England Speeling on this deal? Thanks. Originally Posted by: gryphon Bushy,
I missed that 192 F degree to 194 F degree part. The highest temps I had it run up to was 94 degrees centigrade to 95 degrees centigrade I think that is the same temp as your in Fahrenheit. I always thought it was running too fast then and backed off.
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Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/22/2012(UTC)
Posts: 22
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"Bigwheel,
Indeed it is old english. The word just came to me when I signed up. As for the centigrades and fahrenheits, I suppose it will all come together eventually. I like your saying! I am going this direction because I will be retiring to southwest virginia in a few years and when you are down there you have to be up to snuff to talk to the locals!
Gryphon"
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Rank: Guest
Groups: Guests
Joined: 2/10/2002(UTC)
Posts: 5,254
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Well that is some mighty pretty country your heading off to inhabit shortly. In addition to hooch making skills you also gonna need some Cloggin Boots. That looks like a lot of fun. Originally Posted by: gryphon Bigwheel,
Indeed it is old english. The word just came to me when I signed up. As for the centigrades and fahrenheits, I suppose it will all come together eventually. I like your saying! I am going this direction because I will be retiring to southwest virginia in a few years and when you are down there you have to be up to snuff to talk to the locals!
Gryphon
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