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Mash Grain in Fermentor?
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Offline Orange Sunshine  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:52:06 AM(UTC)
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What is the purpose of fermenting with the grains inside? As a beer brewer, I am all set up to separate the grains from the liquid on the way to the boil pot...or as adapted in this process, to the fermentor. And now I have to add them back!!!? If I ferment without grains will I get different results???
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Offline muadib2001  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, August 14, 2012 11:02:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Orange Sunshine Go to Quoted Post
What is the purpose of fermenting with the grains inside? As a beer brewer, I am all set up to separate the grains from the liquid on the way to the boil pot...or as adapted in this process, to the fermentor. And now I have to add them back!!!? If I ferment without grains will I get different results???


Let's take two scenarios:
1. Ferment with the grain
Cook up the grain, add sugar (or not), get it at the right temperature, pitch the yeast, let it ferment.
During the ferment, we may get additional sugars from the grain that will convert to ETOH. This is good.
You may need to use additional water since the grains may hold onto a lot of it.
Once the ferment is complete, we will have to separate the liquid from the remainder of the grain and hope the grain doesn't hold onto too much ETOH (or sparge it). Sort of tough to do.

2. Ferment without the grain
Cook up the grain, remove the grain solids, add sugar (or not), add additional water (or not) to get it to our batch size, get it at the right temperature, pitch the yeast, let it ferment.
Once the ferment is complete, we only have to rack the liquids to the boiler. Very minimal solids (the yeast, etc) left in the wash.
But we do not get any (possible) additional benefit from the grain staying in the ferment.

If you are very thorough with your mashing procedure, you can ferment without the grain. It's your choice.
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Offline Shinejunky  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:42:10 PM(UTC)
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I like to ferment on the grain it is easier and I think I get more flavor. I use all grain on the first run. It is a pain to separate but I use the grain for a sour mash run by adding sugar and backset to the used grain. That is what works for me. Bigwheels JD chips reciepe is the ticket for my taste as far as aging it quick.
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Offline heeler  
#4 Posted : Thursday, August 16, 2012 7:09:34 AM(UTC)
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You can indeed ferment on the grains but you really dont want to boil your grains. When grains are heated to a certain temp it releases tannins and such. Someone mentioned all grain beer brewing and when you do that you mash or steep the grains for a specified amount of time this in not the same as boiliing. Then after mashing or steeping you drain the liquid off the grain and boil from there. If you make a UJSSM recipe you'll see what I'm talking about, that recipe uses the ferment on the grain school of thought. But with that you are not boiling your grain just the water you add the fermenter and grain.
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Offline heeler  
#5 Posted : Thursday, August 16, 2012 10:00:13 PM(UTC)
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"Let me clarify myself plz....with a whole kernal corn you might have to soak it for 48 hours to soften it enough to MASH it properly --- or boil it to soften it for MASHING. You can grist it (grind it up) and that saves a multitude of time. You still have to mash it to get the starch though. I'm sure somewhere along the line someone got lazy and said just boil the piss out of it and thats good enough.
Now if you are gonna construct a wash and boil your corn and add 10lbs of sugar well thats not really a AG recipe and you are just after the corn flavor anyway. True AG recipes dont imploy sugar, we add it for more alcohol from the wash.
With grains we want to geletenize the starches in the germ of the kernal and we do that by mashing the grain (heating and holding at temp) thats why cracked corn or corn grist is easier to utilize in this field. Then after mashing (converting the starches into fermentable sugars) we add enzymes (or grain malt) and nutrients and ferment from there. We all know Popcorn did'nt do things like that but I would bet the things we imploy today like sanitation and airlocks and LP cookers --- he did'nt used either back in the day!!!!!
Hopefully someone will volunteer to make a fermenter of each, one with boiled corn and sugar and one with a mashed grain and no sugar to see the true difference. We always add sugar soas to get as much likker as possible and so do I but I know this is just cause I'm greedy.Cool"
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Offline Bushy  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2012 1:03:18 PM(UTC)
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I've done a few AG mashes and most of them have an ABV between 8% and 11%. In order to get a higher ABV I use aroud 8Lb of actual grains and 8Lb of dry grain malt.
I mash the whole grains between 150 and 155 F for an hour then sparge, pour hot water over the grains with about 2 1/2 or 3 gallons of hot water. By then the majority of your starches have converted into fermentable sugars and most of the flavors have been removed from the grains.
Remove the grains from the mash. I use a grain bag for my grains now for small batches and a 25gallon mash tun for larger batches.. I used to just throw them in the pot with the water because it made it easier to stir while mashing. But what a pain straining them out.
After removing the grains I add the dry malt and bring it to a boil for about 45 minutes. Chill it with a wort chiller and pitch my yeast.

Oh BTW MASHING is nothing like making mashed potatoes, you don't actually squish the grains. Just thought I'd mention that as I have seen a few posts where someone really did that.
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Offline Shinejunky  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2012 1:45:46 PM(UTC)
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I have found that the all grain produces a premium grade product.The 2nd run I use the same grain with sugar and backset this gives me the volume and good product
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Offline admin  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2012 5:58:53 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
I've done a few AG mashes and most of them have an ABV between 8% and 11%. In order to get a higher ABV I use aroud 8Lb of actual grains and 8Lb of dry grain malt.
I mash the whole grains between 150 and 155 F for an hour then sparge, pour hot water over the grains with about 2 1/2 or 3 gallons of hot water. By then the majority of your starches have converted into fermentable sugars and most of the flavors have been removed from the grains.
Remove the grains from the mash. I use a grain bag for my grains now for small batches and a 25gallon mash tun for larger batches.. I used to just throw them in the pot with the water because it made it easier to stir while mashing. But what a pain straining them out.
After removing the grains I add the dry malt and bring it to a boil for about 45 minutes. Chill it with a wort chiller and pitch my yeast.


Actually, without getting into great detail of mashing, this is pretty much right on the mark.
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Offline scotty  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2012 9:24:53 PM(UTC)
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Again big wheel confuses the issue by not having the knowledge. BW, You really should read or practice some more before contradicting or mocking accurate information.


Thanks guys for taking the effort to post good usable information. Folks like you and some others make the website a good source of information.
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Offline Shinejunky  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:03:20 PM(UTC)
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To add my 2 cents mashing I have found takes practice and I almost think its more of an art. The temps are important but I have also found by adding the right amounts of malt during the heating stage makes the corn loosen up. After the gelitinizing stage temps become important. You must not add the malt to the until the temps are low enough that the heat will not destroy the enzymes. There are charts on the web that show which malts work at certain temps. I say do some research get up the needed supplies and try it.
I must admit I've never been able to hit above 6% potential alcohol any help on that front will be appreciated.
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Offline Orange Sunshine  
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:20:40 AM(UTC)
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OK guys, thanks for the thoughts on this topic. I do have a big bag of cracked feed corn and a big bag of Rye...and I am interested in a bourbon. I tried once, (used flaked corn) but was compelled to pour it out due to some kind of critter infection...it turned noxious after about a week of fermenting at 81 degrees with a Gert Strand turbo. Any advice or input or links to not only recipes...but procedures as well would be greatly appreciated! I am just about ready to try this again...
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Offline John Barleycorn  
#12 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:34:02 AM(UTC)
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"Hi Orange,

Originally Posted by: Orange Sunshine Go to Quoted Post
Any advice or input or links to not only recipes...but procedures as well ....
Here's a link with lots of great information on procedures and other useful tidbits:

http://www.howtobrew.com/sitemap.html

--JB"
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Offline muadib2001  
#13 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:49:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: bigwheel Go to Quoted Post
add sugar to bring it up to 1.008 on the wash checker gizmo

I think BW meant to say "bring it up to 1.080".

Probably just a typo.
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Guest  
#14 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:59:30 AM(UTC)
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No no..dont me cornfused with no steeken math majors. I developed a phobia and give up on sixth grade fractions. lol. I go by how high the wash checker floats in the waves and that depends on the Tide and such things. For example on a big fermenter it tends to bottom out and takes the use of the special plastic test tube. I have had a few holes in the water into which dumb yups throw money, Only thing I know about the little mystery squiggly lines and small numberos was learnt right here. thanks to yourself and several others. Gosh yall get me to wasting too much shine from spitting it on the keyboard. Bad boys and girls..spank spank. Now if you stick with adding and subtracting and how many board feet in a stack of lumber...or whutever happen to Jill when her and Jack walked up the hill so to speak..sure I could handle that. Know I can find the board feet formula around here somewhere. We come from different eras with different agendas. I do not play video games neither.
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Offline muadib2001  
#15 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:17:45 PM(UTC)
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Fine, suit yourself.
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Guest  
#16 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:31:22 PM(UTC)
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Whew Ok. I missed a doubel naught decimal point..sorry. If a person want to be persnickety they could nag at them who speels kat with two K's etc. Butchering up the Queens English with copious grammatical errors is most like a high crime or misdemeaner. Kindly let us know.
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Offline muadib2001  
#17 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:42:41 PM(UTC)
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Your first reply sounded like a knee-jerk reaction.

Your second reply was ~217 bytes too long (anything after "sorry.")
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Guest  
#18 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:50:21 PM(UTC)
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Ok spank me Mama I been bad.
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Offline muadib2001  
#19 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:04:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: bigwheel Go to Quoted Post
Ok spank me Mama I been bad.

If you correct your original post (1.008 to 1.080), I'll delete my subsequent posts and you delete your subsequent posts. Deal?
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Offline muadib2001  
#20 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2012 2:35:30 PM(UTC)
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No answer?
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