 Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 9/5/2010(UTC)
Posts: 15
|
Just wondering why never see recipes that use enzymes to convert starch, rather than malted grains. Do they cause after tastes or other problems?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
Groups: Guests
Joined: 2/10/2002(UTC)
Posts: 5,254
|
Hey yurmo hearty welcome. Seems like there is a few enzyme based recipes out there..but not many as you say. Only bad rap I have heard on the enzymes is they do not add much if any flavor to the mix. The malt makes it taste better or closer to what folks are expecting it to taste like maybe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/23/2012(UTC)
Posts: 38
|
"On the contrary BW, enzyme washes work great. Ran some last weekend.
Straight corn is a lot bigger than a sugar-head to get a respectable OG. I did 12 pounds of corn in a 5 gallon cooker. That makes one big solid mass of corn pudding. I added a tablespoon of alpha-amalayse at 150 on the way up which loosened it up a bit, used a paint stirrer on an electric drill. Brought it up just to the beginning a boil and turned it off. I figured to bring it up hot in order to counteract whatever kind of vermin based nasties it might have picked up at the feed store.
Adjusted PH and added another dose of alpha at 160 on the way down. Adjusted PH again and added gluco-amalayse at 145 on the way down. In one batch I used straight cracked corn and in the other I ground the corn just a little in a corona grinder. It tasted like sweet creamed corn when I was done. let it set overnight and dumped one on a 3rd generation champagne yeast cake and pitched one pack of new champagne yeast in the other. Pretty loose...just thick enough to keep all of the grain in suspension.
Ferment took a coulple of weeks and it started to settle. Maybe 5 inches of clear liquid on top. I racked it out into a secondary carboy. This is where the real work starts...every particle of grain was a little sponge full of beer. Couldn't squeeze it through a nylon mesh paint strainer. I had to get a wire strainer and squeeze beer out of handfulls of corn over the course of two evenings. I ended up with about 6 gallons of beer out of both batches and put it away for a week to finish.
I ran it low and slow in my reflux rig. Collected 5 pints of 92% and that's all there was to get. Ran it to the point where no more came out with a well balanced reflux. Turned down the reflux and only collected about a cup of tails before she was done.
The product was some damn fine whiskey! As I was running it, I was tasting a drop off of my SG float every 100ml and it had that feeling like it was absorbing through the lining of my mouth...kind of a sensation of being sweet without really tasting sweet. Reminded me of toasted marshmallows and parched corn with quite a bite at the end. That was fresh out of the pipe.
Aired it and cut it back to 120 and had some friends sample it. All gave it high praise, some saying it could stand up with the fanciest store bought stuff. One very experienced taster told me it is worthy of an oak barrel. All tasters were amazed that it was 120 proof, saying they figured it was under 80. To a man, they all said ""but, it's clear"". Most whiskeys with so much flavor are apparently not clear.
I am not a whiskey maker, I'm a fuel maker and this stuff was an accident. I get over a gallon out of 5 - 6 gallons of sugar wash. I don't think I'll burn this stuff though.
Oh, anybody that says that reflux strips the flavor off of the distillate has never tried it. This stuff resembles neutral vodka about as much as shit resembles Shinola. I've got this reflux equilibrium thing pretty well figured out, my head temp does not vary more than a degree throughout the run. I can see by my head temp when the heads are done and like I said above, I can control it until their just aint no more ethanol in the tank. This was a slow, careful run and the end product was chock full of flavor."
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/4/2012(UTC)
Posts: 303
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 804
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
|
Originally Posted by: Tea Totaler  I added a tablespoon of glucoamalayse at 150 on the way up which loosened it up a bit,
<snip>
Adjusted PH and added another dose of gluco at 160 on the way down. Adjusted PH again and added alpha-amalayse at 145 on the way down. Tea, Is that a type error or did you actually do it that way? (i.e. -- gluco first, then alpha) The reason I ask is because the alpha is used liquefy and dextrinize gelatinized starch and the gluco is used for saccharification ( to produce glucose from the liquefied starch) ... and 160 is a bit high for the gluco. --JB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 4/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,666
Was thanked: 15 time(s) in 15 post(s)
|
" Originally Posted by: yurmo Just wondering why never see recipes that use enzymes to convert starch, rather than malted grains. Do they cause after tastes or other problems? Yurmo, most recipes that use a malted grain is useiing enzymes, now the explaination. Malted grain provides the enzymes BECAUSE they were malted. Thats what creats the enzymes --malting the grain-- you know they sprout the grain then stop the growth. Now if someone writes --I added AG or DAP what they are saying is - I added enzymes and nutrients but in a generic way. In the good ole days (which by the way were'nt all that good) they would MALT corn or barley grain for the enzymatic effect in their wash. I also read once that they would spit in the wash for the acid that we add other ways today (I HOPE)."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 4/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,666
Was thanked: 15 time(s) in 15 post(s)
|
"These are the types of Nutrients and Enzymes I keep on hand. I dont really try to malt my grains but you could do it if you tried. I think today you can even buy malted grains for a wash. Of course this is not the only way to do it but just one of many.  If you use these in just a sugar wash it would feed your yeast and really take off, where if you use JUST sugar and no nutrients or enzymes, I think you'd be dissapointed with the outcome."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 804
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
|
Originally Posted by: heeler I also read once that they would spit in the wash for the acid that we add other ways today (I HOPE). There are some primitive cultures that make alcoholic beverages in this manner. I saw a film where many of the women were sitting around a large pot and spitting into it. Apparently, the saliva contains amylase, lysozyme, lipase and ptyalin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 4/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,666
Was thanked: 15 time(s) in 15 post(s)
|
Yummmmmmy I think you'd HAVE live in a tribe in the woods to drink that hooch.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
Groups: Guests
Joined: 2/10/2002(UTC)
Posts: 5,254
|
Well thanks for the ezyme lessons. Knew there bound to be a good reason I prefer sugar shine..lol.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/25/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
|
"With regards to the Original Question...
No, the enzymes that are available to distillers will not alter the flavor of the mash or the finished product. Mostly what are available are various kinds of ""amylases"" which are just starch degradation enzymes. That is exactly what you want to do when you are working with a starch source, heck it is what the natural enzymes in malt do as well.
I do not know if enzymes contribute ""less"" in flavor, but I will agree that malt based mashes produce better tasting beverages on average for a variety of reasons. I'm hungry for some malt-o-meal now...
TT - has a good system there, but yes I think the alpha-amylase was switched with the glucoamylase. If that is the actual way that you did it, I would recommend switching.
Hey sugar shine is tried and true, once you start going into starch converting, everything becomes complicated, and excitingly variable. Almost anything can be altered and adjusted to one's liking, the grain, the fermentability, etc.
Either way I hope this helped a bit."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/31/2012(UTC)
Posts: 109
|
"A month ago While on a bike trip stopped by... Ole Smoky Distillery, Gatlinburg, Tennessee [HTML]http://www.olesmokymoonshine.com/[/HTML]... I talked with a gentleman there for a bit. I asked what they use in their mash and I was told Corn Enzymes. I asked if they used generational runs, sour mash? I was told the FDA only lets them use 1 run then they sell the spent mash to local farmers. I regret not asking him to elaborate more on the Corn Enzymes...but now I have a reason to go back!
This was only information passed in casual conversation...not meant to influence or represent the corporationon in any way, shape, or form. I would recommend the trip just to see, smell and taste compare their product to your individual product."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 4/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,666
Was thanked: 15 time(s) in 15 post(s)
|
I also went there and got a t-shirt to prove it. Thier likker was just ok to me, it was indeed a familiar taste but I like my neutrals these days. It was still a cool place to visit. The actual cooker was not in sight but the fermentaqtion vat was and you could really smell that corn mash. We of course did the little taster shots and then bought a quart for the journey home.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/31/2012(UTC)
Posts: 109
|
Originally Posted by: heeler I also went there and got a t-shirt to prove it. Thier likker was just ok to me, it was indeed a familiar taste but I like my neutrals these days. It was still a cool place to visit. The actual cooker was not in sight but the fermentaqtion vat was and you could really smell that corn mash. We of course did the little taster shots and then bought a quart for the journey home. I agree, Its also a good confidence builder knowing that your product is as good or better than some that are produced commercially!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 7/25/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,209
|
It sounds like they malt some of thier corn to get corn enzymes and use it as part of thier mash, I dont know of any way to get malt/corn enzymes to do the conversion. Im all ears on this
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/23/2012(UTC)
Posts: 38
|
"Mr. Barleycorn,
You are absolutely right. I have edited my post.
While the cutsheets that came with the products provide sufficient instruction, they are rather terse. They use product numbers rather than the name of the amalayse. I suppose that is for those who, like me, are easily confused by big words.
Liquifaction is done with the Alpha, saccharification is done with the Gluco.
Also, it appears that these actions continue for some time after it goes to the fermenter."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 7/25/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,209
|
Tea toatler i was impressed wit your adding the diferent amylases at diferent temperatures. I had a mashing method written up that took advantage of the ranges that the diferent amylases were most active. I'm not sure but that method as oposed to a simple infusion mash is designed for higher alcohol production rather than for maintaining flavor which i believe comes from remaining non fermented components
I am wondering if you had any specific goal in mine that caused you to mash the way you did??
Thank you for stirring up the grey matter lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/23/2012(UTC)
Posts: 38
|
Scotty, I added the alpha on the way up to try to get some liquefaction so I could stir, 12 pounds of corn gets pretty thick in a 5 gallon pot. I figured it would denature pretty quick so I disregarded the first dose after the boil and did it again when it could sit in the proper temperature range for a couple hours. My information has it that the alpha and gluco like different temperatures and PH ranges. I let the mash cool naturally so it had time to luxuriate in the preferred temperature.
My goal was to experiment with quantity of ETOH available in corn. I was going for best possible conversion. My gig is fuel. Next experiment is potatoes and then waste bread.
Ultimately, I'm a prepper. I figure to work this technology out while I still have access to the BH brain trust.
(The above post was interrupted by having to change jars)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 7/25/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,209
|
TT
ARE YOU USING THE BOOK " The chemistry of corn into alcohol" that was written in the chemistry department of PARKLAND COLLEGE wherever that is??? i ask because these folks use some sort of numbering to identify the amylases.
They have a controlled set of temperature ranges for conversions with thier chemical amylases.. Also they steep the corn for 48 hours before mashing. The method is only for producing alcohol for fuel.
The thing that cought my attention was your using the gluco amylase first as it is the one that breaks the starch tree down to where the alphas can chew off the ends and produce many highly fermentables. Again not good for flavor but mainly for % of alcohol
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/23/2012(UTC)
Posts: 38
|
No, not a chemical amylase. It is available by the pound from a direct competitor of BH. (I find it rather inappropriate to name other product vendors on a forum sponsored by a vendor)
It is apparently derived from bacteria rather than fungus. Says its Kosher.
Not using that book. I am reading articles on the interwebs, extrapolating the data to my purpose, and experimenting. With less than 10 bucks in a batch, there is little risk in trying something new. If I do something right and can use that experience to answer another's question...
(for those of you playing along at home, just topped the third jar. All right at 91% on a sugar head/ sour mash beer, third generation champagne yeast)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
