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Offline scotty  
#1 Posted : Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:49:39 AM(UTC)
scotty


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"Since i dont believe that one can run a still at equilibrium without effective control over the temperature of the liquid in the boiler, i'm going to rig a pid control to monitor and hold the boiler liquid at ???? temperature for XXX amount of time before starting to take off the fores etc.

I plant to use the auto tune feature of a PID and run just water for a few tests so the PID can select its various points of information.

I dont think that controlling the cooling water to the tower is running equilibrium.


If i get this going ill intergrate the evice with my existing voltage controlling setup.



QUESTIONS


1 - What boiler temperature do you think is best so as to allow the factions to stack???

2 - Right now my small 6 gallon boiler has a thermowell that runs from the top to the bottom of the boiler. I used to slip the probe down far enough The be sure i was in the liquid.
I want to install a 6 inch thermowell into the side of my 8 gallon BH boiler.

??????HOW HIGH FROM THE BOTTOM WOULD YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE INSTALLED.?????


3 - How much time is needed to establish equilibrium???


I have information but it is not really very consistant

AND i have learned that our group is excellent at brainstorming type threads."
Offline Maddawgs  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, March 27, 2013 4:52:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: scotty Go to Quoted Post
Since i dont believe that one can run a still at equilibrium without effective control over the temperature of the liquid in the boiler, i'm going to rig a pid control to monitor and hold the boiler liquid at ???? temperature for XXX amount of time before starting to take off the fores etc.

I plant to use the auto tune feature of a PID and run just water for a few tests so the PID can select its various points of information.

I dont think that controlling the cooling water to the tower is running equilibrium.


If i get this going ill intergrate the evice with my existing voltage controlling setup.



QUESTIONS


1 - What boiler temperature do you think is best so as to allow the factions to stack???

2 - Right now my small 6 gallon boiler has a thermowell that runs from the top to the bottom of the boiler. I used to slip the probe down far enough The be sure i was in the liquid.
I want to install a 6 inch thermowell into the side of my 8 gallon BH boiler.

??????HOW HIGH FROM THE BOTTOM WOULD YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE INSTALLED.?????


3 - How much time is needed to establish equilibrium???


I have information but it is not really very consistant

AND i have learned that our group is excellent at brainstorming type threads.

Hi Scotty,
Wow, no responses?. I'm surprised as I thought this was a pretty good idea and the forum has some pretty smart members. I'll try and help with a few (totally uneducated)thoughts that I hope can help you out.
I'm not sure you can really control the temp of a liquid once a heat source is applied to anything other than a range unless you can accuratley use some sort of heat cycling. If you could control the temp I would try to do it in stages to take off the different alcohols at their vapor points. Going along that line of thought where the temp sensor (thermowell) is placed would not really matter as long as it is somewhere in the center of the liquid mass (because you are heating the entire liquid mass to a certain temp). So you would heat the liquid to around 154f until you had taken off all the foreshots. Next set the PID to heat the liquid to a range of 160f to 170f and let it sit there until you have taken off all (or most of) the heads. For these two first steps you would not really need any real reflux, just take off the alchols at a good rate until they stop (based on the temps these alcohols vaporize). Next set the PID to heat the liquid to a range of 171f to 176f. Here you could get the best use of the reflux system and I think (and I could be wrong) may hit 94% to 96% abv (because at this temp range you should only get the good alcohol). After that set the temp for 180f to 200f and pull tails until they are done. Use them for your next run. I could have this all wrong but I hope it will get some dialog going.
Maddawgs
Offline scotty  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, March 27, 2013 6:22:00 AM(UTC)
scotty


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i was thinking of setting the pid to one temp and holding it untill the factions stack. i would have the take off valve closedand the water running through the cooling tubes a bit-- i dont really have a clear picture yet but a pid controlling the boiler temp is a key point. I dont want to keep changing the boiler temp. Getting the factions to stack is the key to equlibrium i believe
Offline googe  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:00:41 AM(UTC)
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Hi Scotty, I would imagine you would need a good controlled environment, no wind, insulated column and boiler if you were to go to the trouble, cause I'd imagine your pid wouldn't get accurate readings?. What's the reasoning behind your idea?. Can't you get equlibrium running your still how you do now?. It doesn't take much to achieve equlibrium. Stacking the fractions is equlibrium. Sorry I'm not very switched on with technical stuff, just don't really understand what your trying to do. I'll wait till other comment, might understand better lol.

Cheers
Offline scotty  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:55:23 AM(UTC)
scotty


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I never run equilibrium-- how do you do it-

I just want to see if running at equilibrium first is any better than a simple very slow run.

Both my boiler and tower are well insulated and i have large pull down bamboo type roller shade on the porch where i run the rig.
Offline googe  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:18:52 PM(UTC)
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You have a reflux still don't you Scotty?, it should achieve equilibrium. It will be better than a straight out slow run, the fractions will stack better and give you finer cuts with more of the goodness, in theory. I'm pretty new to all this to but that's my understanding, my bubbler compaired to a vm or lm is it will compress fractions better.
Offline Frank T  
#7 Posted : Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:27:16 AM(UTC)
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Im not sure a PID is going to work all that well. The reason I say this is because the output of it is basically a relay that will be turning the heating element on and off rather than controling the current flow through the element such as with the Solid State Resistor type of system. Of course im not familiar with your setup so I might be speaking out of turn.
Offline Gravelier  
#8 Posted : Friday, April 19, 2013 2:07:47 PM(UTC)
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"Scotty:

I think you are trying to establish an equilibrium process to batch mode. Your batch is a mish mash of fractions. Each fraction as it boils off, controls the batch (liquid) temperature. Think of the process as if you were trying to only boil off water vapor. No matter how much energy you put into the water, the temperature of the batch stays the same, 212, unless under pressure.

As each fraction boils off, that fraction controls the temperature of the liquid and the temp of the vapor coming off. As that fraction leaves the liquid, the next fraction controls the temp of the boil, and the temp increases. Up to the point when all of the fractions are gone and you only have water, and solids. This temp will go up past 212, as the water is boiled off and you only have a paste left.

So, where to put the thermo-well. I would say about mid-way. It really doesn't matter as you will record the temp of the boil or the vapor above the boil. Which should be pretty close to the same.

I don't think that you will be able to stack fractions in your column unless you are running a pressurized system, and continous process. That is to be continuously adding additonal liquid (wash) as you pull off fractions and waste, also continously."
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