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Funny smelling grape mash!!!
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Offline Tracyman0111  
#1 Posted : Friday, March 22, 2013 3:29:35 PM(UTC)
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Hey all. Currently about 4 or 5 days into my second fruit/juice mash, and wanted to run something by y'all. It's a 5 gallon grape; used 4 cans grape juice concentrate (should have used more), 8 lbs sugar, 6 tbsp distillers yeast, and enough water to make 5gallons.....all churning away in a bucket kept at a steady 75 degrees with an electric blanket Cool my initial SG was around 1.065ish, and it's now at 1.030 dead on the money. Has a nice even foamy bubbly layer on top, and underneath its sizzling good, you can actually see the yeast churning around in there. Problem is, at some point during the day today, it's developed a vinegary smell, and even has a slight burning sensation to the nose when you breath in deeply over it. Now, this is my first grape mash (last one was apple), but surely this is not normal?? Any ideas?? I'm pretty sure I've given all the relevant details......
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Offline Tracyman0111  
#2 Posted : Friday, March 22, 2013 3:30:45 PM(UTC)
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Does anyone think there's a chance that this is some kind of mold/mildew or something? Visually, all looks normal.....
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Offline okie  
#3 Posted : Saturday, March 23, 2013 12:42:15 AM(UTC)
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You didn't mention if you sterilized your fermenter well before making it. I made wine for years and sterilizing everything that touches the must is very important. Vinegar yeast is airborne. It's everywhere. It turns good wine into vinegar even in your refrigerator if you leave it there long enough.

I always wash my hands like a surgeon. Sing the happy birthday song with soap and warm water scrubbing your hands then rinse well. If you don't have a sterilizing agent you can use bleach in water. Just don't go overboard and leave the water with bleach in it for several minutes before draining it. It takes a while to kill everything.

If you did all that and it's doing the stink thing, I don't know what it is. Something must have gotten in it.
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Offline Tracyman0111  
#4 Posted : Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:50:58 AM(UTC)
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As far as STERILIZATION, I generally just wash my buckets with soap and water after racking off into my kettle. The mash is still working, down to 1.020 now, but just has that vinegary smell. If vinegar yeast are simply airborne and everywhere, how do I prevent this from happening? I still plan on running this, just to see.....
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Offline okie  
#5 Posted : Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:58:58 AM(UTC)
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Do you have stores near you that sell supplies to beer and wine makers? They sell stuff for that. Bleach works fine too. I use an iodine solution I bought at a brew shop and after washing real good I soak it in that for about 5 minutes. If there are any small scratches or cuts in the fermenter stuff can hide in there and needs to be sterilized.

I put my hose, stirring paddle, and everything else in it too. I also put the lid on and turn it upside down to get that sterilized. Might be overkill but it's best to error on the side of caution.

One last thing, I boil a tea pot of water for a few minutes and let it cool off. That's what I rinse the stuff off with because I don't want a residual amount in my wash.
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Offline 3rdcoast  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 6:59:51 AM(UTC)
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Sounds like an infection to me. I've made wine for a long time and it shouldn't smell like vinegar, unless it gets infected. You should really sanitize everything really well that comes in contact with your must.
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Offline Bodhammer  
#7 Posted : Monday, April 01, 2013 12:37:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tracyman0111 Go to Quoted Post
Hey all. Currently about 4 or 5 days into my second fruit/juice mash, and wanted to run something by y'all. It's a 5 gallon grape; used 4 cans grape juice concentrate (should have used more), 8 lbs sugar, 6 tbsp distillers yeast, and enough water to make 5gallons.....all churning away in a bucket kept at a steady 75 degrees with an electric blanket Cool my initial SG was around 1.065ish, and it's now at 1.030 dead on the money. Has a nice even foamy bubbly layer on top, and underneath its sizzling good, you can actually see the yeast churning around in there. Problem is, at some point during the day today, it's developed a vinegary smell, and even has a slight burning sensation to the nose when you breath in deeply over it. Now, this is my first grape mash (last one was apple), but surely this is not normal?? Any ideas?? I'm pretty sure I've given all the relevant details......


As a homebrewer, I have been fanatical about sanitation and I can honestly say I have had ONE bottle of beer go bad in 10+ years. Because most distillers, as far as I can tell, do not boil the wort, the early fermentation seems are especially susceptible to infection and without hops, have a more neutral PH (except sour mash) which is also more hospitable to bacteria and wild yeast. I always keep a spray bottle of Star-San around after the mash and until the yeast is pitched and caps on the carboys! Every thing that touches the wort gets sprayed once I start cooling down to pitching temp. Carboys/buckets, caps, corks, airlocks, etc. are soaked in Star-san until use. Yeast hydration's and starters are also boiled and sanitized.

As I have not made a wash or all grain alcohol wort, would it be reasonable to bring the wort/wash up to 168° for at least 10 minutes? It would stop the enzyme reactions if you used malt, and it will pasteurize the wort. This will help prevent early infections before the yeast does its magic and starts producing the ethanol which will naturally kill most of the unwanted nasties. I know that many of the recipes are throw the horsefeed in the bucket and pitch but if you have the equipment to heat and filter mash, will pasturing or boiling the wort have any ill-effects? Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm still thinking like a brewer and not a distiller!
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Offline scotty  
#8 Posted : Monday, April 01, 2013 1:14:43 PM(UTC)
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stressing sanitizing methods can NEVER BE STUPID--
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Offline okie  
#9 Posted : Monday, April 01, 2013 11:36:47 PM(UTC)
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When you get to that temp I think it kills the enzymes so I'd make sure you have the starch converted before you do that. I'd read about amylase first to make sure but as an AG maker I can tell you not converting all your starch first will make for burned wash in the boiler. Been there done that, burned and 168 degrees before all the starch was converted.
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Offline John Barleycorn  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:53:59 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
I know that many of the recipes are throw the horsefeed in the bucket and pitch

Unfortunately, you'll find a lot of anecdotal and unsophisticated processes (and folks) in this hobby. If you're not someone who wants to throw a gazillion pounds of sugar on top whatever boiled grain derivative that happens to be handy while running about barefooted in only a pair of overalls, BigGrin you'll just have to dig a little deeper than you would with the wine/beer folks.

Quote:
but if you have the equipment to heat and filter mash, will pasturing or boiling the wort have any ill-effects? Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm still thinking like a brewer and not a distiller!

That's definitely not a stupid question. And I think you should continue to think like a brewer but simply be mindful of ways to conserve effort with respect to distilling. Some of your beer brewing techniques may not give you much (or any) bang for the buck once the wash is in the boiler. If you're an experienced and serious AG home brewer, you're already miles ahead of the average joe distiller.

That said, I read a few posts (on another forum) that was questioning the value of the boil WRT distilling. As I recall, some of the comments suggested skimming off the hot break. I'll have to see if I can find it again and shoot you a PM. At the very least it could help reduce the chances of puking. I'm not sure if that's even an issue for you though.

Try this: brew two identical batches. Bring one at least to the hot break, but not the other. Then do your best to ferment and distill both batches in an identical manner. Then you'll be able to tell us what you've learned ... and you won't have to deal with all of the conjecture that so many are willing to offer.

In any case, boiling the wort won't hurt anything at all. You'll have to make sure you aerate ... but as a beer brewer, that's already been woven into your DNA through your brewing experience. Wink

Regards,
--JB
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Offline Bodhammer  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, April 02, 2013 8:02:13 AM(UTC)
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JB, thanks for the detailed answer. For AG brewing I always scrape off the hot break before the first hop addition. It seems to help my carboys from puking. I seem to get a much less sticky krausen. Please do send me the thread.

With regards to aeration, I have one of these and an O2 bottle - http://www.williamsbrewi...-AERATION-WAND-P490.aspx 45 seconds and it is good to go.

Thanks,
B.
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Offline scotty  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:15:33 AM(UTC)
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Please tell this beer brewer wannabe what scraping off the hot break means ?
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Offline Bodhammer  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:27:27 PM(UTC)
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It is proteins and what not that coagulates in the boiling.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-2.html
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Offline Bodhammer  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:39:47 PM(UTC)
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"BTW - I found a great book today on the web: http://www.mhtg.org/syst...hment/2012/craftbook.pdf

Answered a lot of questions for me.

B."
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Offline heeler  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, April 03, 2013 6:11:33 AM(UTC)
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I missed the part about where the OG mentioned a sealed and airlocked fermenter!!!!! I saw the term bucket but nothing about how he kept the wild yeast out. But I may have just missed it.
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Offline John Barleycorn  
#16 Posted : Thursday, April 04, 2013 6:45:56 AM(UTC)
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"Hey Bod,

Originally Posted by: Bodhammer Go to Quoted Post
For AG brewing I always scrape off the hot break before the first hop addition.


Do you ever use Irish Moss? Does it make a noticeable difference?"
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Offline Bodhammer  
#17 Posted : Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:47:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn Go to Quoted Post
Hey Bod,



Do you ever use Irish Moss? Does it make a noticeable difference?


I did use Irish moss for a a long time, I now always use whirlfloc tabs. I have occasionally used biofine clear in the secondary if it really cloudy but that has only been once or twice.
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