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Offline Mrjibs  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, July 10, 2013 1:54:29 PM(UTC)
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My son and I built a unit from a used helium storage tank. The outer shell is a mild steel vessel 24 inches in diameter and 48 inches tall with a 5.5Kw heating element operating on 220V. The inner vessel is stainless steel, approx 25 gallons volume with a 2 in. diameter column 24 inches tall packed with stainless steel wool. We've made 3 runs so far with better and better results each time. Got into this with no knowledge or experience, so I'm glad to get on this forum for some brain picking. Our problem is we have to turn the power on and off to maintain an even temperature in the inner drum. Would it be better to regulate the boiler water in the outer drum based on temperature of the water or by a probe in the column to regulate boiler water temp. We currently regulate based on the shell temp of the condenser using a mark 1 mod 1 finger. The condenser water discharge temp was also an option for boiler water temp regulation. Thoughts? Discuss among you, I'm all eyes.
Offline John Barleycorn  
#2 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:21:25 AM(UTC)
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Hi Mrjibs,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not sure I understand the inner drum/outer drum design as you describe it. Are you saying that you have an inner drum for your wash, and an outer drum that contains water? ... and you heat the water in the outer drum to indirectly heat the wash in the inner drum?

--JB
Offline Mrjibs  
#3 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 5:41:08 AM(UTC)
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Precisely. It's like a double boiler for melting chocolate only the inner tank has a reflux column. We feel this
Will provide gentle heat to prevent scorching.
Offline John Barleycorn  
#4 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:25:52 AM(UTC)
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Well that sounds pretty cool.

Quote:
Our problem is we have to turn the power on and off to maintain an even temperature in the inner drum.

Since you have your wash in the inner drum, that's the stuff you're trying to boil ... and you can't control the temperature at which it boils. The boiling point will be determined only by the chemical make-up of the wash. Once it's boiling, the temp won't increase any further (other than due to a change in the make-up of the wash as more EthOH is drawn off). So the only thing you can actually control at the boiler is the amount of energy (power) that you put into the wash ... which will in turn control the volume of vapor that is generated in a given amount of time (flow).

You can control your power with a power controller that has a minimum current capacity of 5500/220 = 25 amps, but you'll want to go higher so you're not running your controller at maximum current. A 30 amp controller should be adequate ... this will put you at about 83% (25/30) of its rating when you're running full power.

You didn't mention if you have a reflux condenser ... it's a separate issue, but I'm curious. Also, do you have a mechanism to vent the water between the two drums? ... or some sort-of diaphragm to account for the expansion when things get hot?
Offline Mrjibs  
#5 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:45:52 AM(UTC)
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The outer boiler is vented to atmosphere. We also have an insulating blanket to hold heat as well as insulation on the column. We don't however have a reflux condenser. How necessary is that component?
Offline John Barleycorn  
#6 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:13:54 AM(UTC)
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That will depend on what you're trying to accomplish. If you want to shoot for high abv (neutrals), a reflux condenser and an appropriate take-off will help a lot ... but it also makes things a bit more complicated. If you're trying to bring some flavor across with the advantage of some packing (like having a few plates) then I would think you're good to go. You can add/remove packing as necessary.

BTW: If you don't have any copper in the vapor path, you might want to try a plug or two of copper mesh in your column.
Offline Mrjibs  
#7 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:34:59 AM(UTC)
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I have a dozen SS wool pads to fill the column. I gather a reflux condenser will give the ethanol more trips to the wash and a cleaner run. Will this also increase concentration? It's already around 90%.
Offline dieselduo  
#8 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:02:39 AM(UTC)
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You need copper in the vapor path not ss to get the nasties out
Offline John Barleycorn  
#9 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:53:09 AM(UTC)
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If you use a reflux condenser to manage the reflux ratio you can indeed increase the abv. And if you can get the column to equalize you can potentially get some good heads compression ... so a well defined heads cut and less bleeding into the early hearts.

I've never run my rig with the column fully packed unless I was using the reflux condenser. When I use only two plugs, I'll top-out at 84%. But 90% sounds good to me. In the end, the only thing that really matters is whether or not you like what you're making. If you like the flavor, there's no need to monkey with things unless you're experimenting.
Offline googe  
#10 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:57:49 AM(UTC)
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Johns right about the controller. You need a.constant heat, turning the heat on and off will just mess with the output and give smearing and off flavors in the output. You have a pot still with a little reflux from.the packing. A pot still is run by heat input, have the heat so the output is a broken stream/toothpick size. Don't worry about temps with a pot, it won't show you how to run it, it will just be a guide to when your different fractions are coming out. Your getting pretty good ABV already!, a reflux condenser will return condensed cape back.to the boiler over and over and over, it stacks the fractions and compresses them better so you get a cleaner less smeared end product. the packing in your still is doing this to a.degree, just not as effective. You might get between 3~6 more ABV out of it if you put a reflux condenser on it, 3~6ABV doesn't sound like much, but at that level it makes quiet a difference. Good luck. Btw, love the sound of your boiler :-).
Offline Mrjibs  
#11 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:52:39 PM(UTC)
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JB, we are very much into experimenting. First 3 runs were sugar washes. Used marbles for packing and got nasty results. Switched to SS pads and am very pleased with results. For you DD I don't think it will matter if copper or SS is used for packing unless the copper is actually having the nasty stuff adhere to it. If that's the case I would have to figure out a way to strip the nasties from the expanded copper roll. My next two runs are a wash using 20 pounds of masa flour, commonly used to make tamales, and 100 pounds of sugar in 50 gallons of water. It's ready for a Saturday run and we are looking forward to try a new taste. I will also try disconnecting one leg of the element and running it on 110V 2.75Kw. When we run it now we turn on the power for 3 minutes and off for 6 minutes. This gives a fairly steady flow, but if I graphed it it would be hills and valleys. I want more of a flat line graph for the effluent volume. Thank you all for the help, and I'll get back to you all next week with the results.
Offline John Barleycorn  
#12 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:22:04 PM(UTC)
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"
Quote:
I don't think it will matter if copper or SS is used for packing unless the copper is actually having the nasty stuff adhere to it.

That's pretty much what happens. Hydrogen sulphide and other sulphur compounds (e.g. DMTS) produce a rotten egg or cabbage aroma. Fortunately, they will react with copper to form copper sulphate that will stick to the copper. But one or two plugs of copper mesh are easy to maintain, you can clean them in a few minutes in a bowl of water/vinegar or water/citric acid."
Offline Mrjibs  
#13 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 9:20:19 AM(UTC)
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Wow! What a wonderful difference grain makes. I made a run Saturday and am very pleased with the results. Did a taste test with the new results and the sugar wash. All it needs now is a little barrel aging. Is there any prohibition against pictures? I took a good one of Frankenstill.
Offline dieselduo  
#14 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 9:27:00 AM(UTC)
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So what was your grain bill ? Why don't you try stress aging with oak chips will be ready in a week
Offline Mrjibs  
#15 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 9:46:23 AM(UTC)
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By grain bill I guess your not talking dollars and cents. I must admit to cheating a bit. I used 100% corn in the form of corn flour for tamales. Get it at SAMs Club in 50# sacks already converted. No cooking needed. I'm getting flaked rye, flaked corn, and malted barley from our forum host in Fort Worth. My next batch will be President Washington's recipe. My understanding is the flaked grains are already converted. How long does the barley cook for best conversion?
Offline John Barleycorn  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:20:59 AM(UTC)
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Flaked grains are usually already gelatinized, but they're still starch. You'll still need to convert the starch to sugars with one or more amylase enzymes ... either from a malted grain or using a commercial product.
Offline Mrjibs  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, July 16, 2013 1:21:29 AM(UTC)
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We will be using malted barley for our first AG mash. Is it best to heat the entire mix to 150-170 degreesF? I think the water to grain ratio is 2# grain to 1 gallon water. I'm purchasing 50# flaked corn, 50# flaked rye, & 10# malted barley. I want to do a GW recipe first, & them use the remaining grain to do the inverse recipe. Thoughts?
Offline John Barleycorn  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2013 12:39:16 AM(UTC)
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The devil is in the detail with all of the mashing parameters (water-to-grain ratio, different rest temps and time, average DP, adjunct type/amounts, water chemistry, etc. etc.). Best bet is to follow a proven process ... maybe follow what other members have done wrt the GW recipe.

Here's a great online reference that explains many of those details: http://www.howtobrew.com/sitemap.html
Offline RCRed  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2013 1:24:26 AM(UTC)
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Even using the proven techniques will prove a tad daunting the first two or three times thru. I found this out on the sweet feed recipe. It reads easier than it is. The baseline cook on the sf, then resting and temp reduction, and the addition of the flaked barley and a second cook at a lower temp, etc...You find that you have to add water on one batch, where the next time it's not exactly the same, might have to add some Amyl, and water, or nothing at all...All depends..

JB speaks with unforked tounge BigGrin I found it's better to start with small batches on tried-n-true stuff, I have more fun and less anx that way. I understand the urge to go large, but aim small, miss small BigGrin
Offline Mrjibs  
#20 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2013 1:38:39 AM(UTC)
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We plan on making a 100 liter wash due to the size of the still. You have all been very helpful and we WILL go with a proven method. The crux of the matter is will there be a big difference in taste when inverting the proportions of corn and rye? Should we stick with just the GW recipe until it's perfected. If so, I need to increase the rye purchases.
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