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Offline scotty  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:00:38 PM(UTC)
scotty


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"CHORECHUNK WROTE

You do realize it is the alcohol content of your wash or low wines that dictates the column head temperature right? The heat input (wattage) only controls the takeoff rate from a drip to stream. You must always have enough heat to vaporize the liquid and if not kept steady will make the system wishy washy and not give the best output.

I have many PID controllers but see no purpose in using them, though I might just for water control. The tricky part is how to control the output, if it is an analog 4-20mA or 1-10 vdc you need a power conversion module to translate that into high amperage. I was an automation electrician in the food industry for 30 years and have about $15,000 in parts on eBay right now.

If you have any questions on how to set one up let me know but beside a dog and pony show it would be a waste of money as it would be too hard to control. I am all for bells and whistles and kept enough of my controllers for some pretty neat things to do with the still but none include messing with the boiler heat beyond simple wattage control.

I hope this doesn't make me a poopy head like heeler.


BigGrin POOPY HEAD LOL LOLOhMyGodOhMyGod


I cant tell you how much i appreciate both your reply and your offer.
As far as setting one up, i will definitely have questions because i am reading everything i can find and understanding only a part of it.


I still have to get the element installed in the boiler.


Basically my confusion is this.
If the liquid in the boiler is kept at a temperature of 205 F. with a diferential of one degree, How does the wash know if the heat is on or off?? Shouldnt the desired elements boil off under that condition



Please dont think i havent heard all the input about keeping the heat applied but at a lower wattage. I would not have aquired a variac if i didnt belied those wit the experience."
Offline Chore Chunk  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 04, 2010 2:14:47 AM(UTC)
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"You are only interested in the heat of fusion of the mixture at hand, once you over come that quantity and temp the the liquid will phase change, I think for water it is 144 BTUs per pound and then only 1 BTU thereafter. Adding more heat will only make the change happen faster and in our business not always a good thing as it will carry undesirables over with the goodies which is why you should only run a few drips when first starting a run otherwise brute force will bring the banana boat with it - it may smell nice but its liquid shit.

As the alcohol is removed the rate change is slowed and the heat of fusion is increased, in order to keep the drip/stream equivalent as it was at 180 to be the same as at 190 you need to increase the power by a few more watts. You can not do this with a temp controller but rather a mass flow meter."
Offline scotty  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 04, 2010 2:20:50 AM(UTC)
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"i will play with the variac for sure--then ill keep one of my digital meat probes in the head to monitor that.

perhaps the pid could be used to shut the operation down when the head temp reaches a particular indicated temperature

((((((((((heat of fusion or vaporization???)))"
Offline Chore Chunk  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, August 04, 2010 2:43:29 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: scotty Go to Quoted Post
i will play with the variac for sure--then ill keep one of my digital meat probes in the head to monitor that.

perhaps the pid could be used to shut the operation down when the head temp reaches a particular indicated temperature

((((((((((heat of fusion or vaporization???)))

Yes i was thinking of ice - same difference right? my cup jingles.

many people including me use over-temp for shut down"
Offline scotty  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:38:42 AM(UTC)
scotty


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"
Originally Posted by: Chore Chunk Go to Quoted Post
Yes i was thinking of ice - same difference right? my cup jingles.

many people including me use over-temp for shut down


[SIZE=""6""] I C[/SIZE] --------------------------------------------------"
Offline LWTCS  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:03:48 AM(UTC)
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"Yes if water boils a 212f and alcohol at 174, then a 12% wash will boil somewhere in between.

Then as the alcohol gets liberated (incrementally), the wash temp will rise as the composition of the wash will be more water and less alcohol. But the increase in temps is needed to liberate the remaining bit of alcohol.

If you try to hold wash temps down, there will not be enough heat to separate more alcohol.

Temps will never exceed 212 as water boils at 212.......There is no such thing as 350 degree water. As mentioned,,more heat just makes it happen faster.

In short,,,,the alcohol content of the wash at any given point during your run will govern the boiling point."
Offline scotty  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:31:50 AM(UTC)
scotty


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"thanks for all the input--- i guess i better not waste my $$ on the book by is it IKU on automatic stills.

Originally Posted by: LWTCS Go to Quoted Post
Yes if water boils a 212f and alcohol at 174, then a 12% wash will boil somewhere in between.

Then as the alcohol gets liberated (incrementally), the wash temp will rise as the composition of the wash will be more water and less alcohol. But the increase in temps is needed to liberate the remaining bit of alcohol.

If you try to hold wash temps down, there will not be enough heat to separate more alcohol.

Temps will never exceed 212 as water boils at 212.......There is no such thing as 350 degree water. As mentioned,,more heat just makes it happen faster.

In short,,,,the alcohol content of the wash at any given point during your run will govern the boiling point.
"
Offline mtnwalker2  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:59:37 AM(UTC)
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"Hi group. I am totally ignorant of the workings, but have read a lot of what others have done. Their key is to control the temps at the head of a VM system. They basically do this by sending the temp signal at the head to their computer whch then regulates the water flow with an electronic valve. Within the program is also a temp gauge to measure the circulated water temp. and the program they have developed corrects for the water flow volume. Some of the programs also have adjustments for heat input. They offer these programs for free, but its way out of my league and totally unnessecary for my very cold spring water. Gravity fed like the old days.

Contact me personally if you want links. Many have been doing this for years with great success?"
Offline LWTCS  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:42:52 PM(UTC)
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"I have a CM apperatus at the head of my rig. I can dial in ABV based on how much coolant I allow to pass through my dephlagmater.

Easier to regulate temps within the column.

With my rig (on my to do list), a thermo placed at various places on the apperatus will offer fair warning as to the remaining alcohol within the wash.

If you have a thermo at the boiler and a thermo at take off,,,you will get fair warning when the last bit of usable ( based on 212 being butt naked water) alcohol is on it's way up the pipe."
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