When making bourbon or rye do you ferment with the grains or without? what is the difference in taste? I think you would get more alcohol with the grains right?

"I created a mash of approximately 30% malted rye, 10% malted 6 row barley (the rest in my sack), and 60% cracked corn. I dumped the mix (sans the barley) into filtered water to bring it to a temp. of 148F to convert some of the rye starches. After 90 minutes I slowly brought the mix to a boil to cook the corn, left it for 60 minutes, then back to to conversion temp, where I mixed the barley. After another 90 minutes to convert the barley and corn starches, I cooled to 75F or so and poured it into my fermenter, along with a pack of turbo yeast, ON THE GRAINS. My OG was around 1.05

All this to say that after 2 days of vigorous bubbling, and a final gravity of 1.005, what resulted was a fairly viscous, distinctly cheesy and sour (but not unpleasant) smelling mash. I filtered it through a fine mesh fitting in my funnel, and distilled it in a single column still with about a quarter gallon of extra water because I thought its thickness might cause scorching.

No scorching, but still cheesy. And not appetizing.

I wanted to recount my experience with on-the-grain fermenting in case it helps anyone, and also to see what errors were in my process. I have little idea what my mashes should smell like, but chose to move on to another mash.

I am just starting, and now realize an all grain mash (especially with a solid amount of rye) might not have been the best for a beginner. But there you have it. Any critiques will be very appreciated.

Thanks"

"Thanks again, mountainwalker.

I'd say I definitely cooked it for too long. Once in the fermenter, it was just too viscous. The grains never settled out from the liquid. Ahh well, a good lesson."

"My rye is all of the above as well. Having, for whatever misinformed reason, chosen to distill my premier mash as a 100% rye, I learned several lessons. This accumulated knowledge from trial and error was perfectly summed up in the smell that issued forth from my wretched cauldron.

I will describe it as best I can so that this batch can serve as a beacon to those whose naive ignorance may take them down a similar path that leads to what must be at least the 7th level of distillation hell. I am by no means experienced, but my aromatic imagination can't muster up any smell that could be all that much worse than this.

First of all I flamed the bejesus out of my propane burner, immediately guaranteeing that anything, possibly even distilled water, would have lit on fire inside of my keg. My rye goo/mash/mucous definitely did. After a jump in temperature from 130 to 180 in less than 15 seconds, a quick drip began.
Rye whisky?
Nay.

What came out should never have been put on this earth. It was as if some demon that ate only cigarette butts and drank only napalm and wood stain vomited into my little canning jar. It's the caliber of smell that puts your body on such high alert that you seem to catch traces of it everywhere afterwards. I have it in a tightly sealed jar as a reminder to learn from my mistakes. Maybe if I have it exorcised it will mellow down. I think I can smell it through the glass..."

"

I smelled my swill as soon as I walked down to the basement, even tho it was in capped jars inside a cabinet. What I have learned is that you need to use more water to loosen it up, use boiling water infusion to raise the temp, not a burner, clarify it after fermentation and make sure it's not too thick. I will try again because I just won't give up till I get it right."

So how clear is it when you run, and do you use gelatin or something else to clear it? Thanks

"I made an all rye whiskey a few years back using the flaked rye.
The first time I let it ferment too long (10 days)and since the abv was too low it went bad. It smelled like rotten meat or really good cheese. (I didn't add any sugar, I just used the rye starch and converted it and the abv was around 4.5%.) The second time I tried it, I did the same but after 5 days I racked it allowed it to settle and then distilled it.
I aged it on some med. charred oak for about the same time I aged my corn whiskey and boy was it harsh. I let it set for another couple of months and it mellow out nicely."

mw2.....I concure, not on the lazy part but on the just as good part. I really did try to do it the RIGHT way but just as yo say it just was'nt worth the hassle. Nowthen the latter of the two does work just as good and is sooo much easier. (Cause that poridge is a bi--h to strain.)

"For any that are determined to do the porridge mash. Stir in a big bunch of rice hulls. Makes the filtering much, much easier and faster.

I did put my mash into 2 equal sized paint strainer bags, then put them on opposite sides of my centrifigul honey centrifuge slinger. That really worked well and fast.

But I still like the no cook!"

"Dude, if you never screw anything up you aren't doing it enough. Messing up a mash is how we learn the hard way. You know -- dont do it that way again -- and take lots of notes.
If you follow any recipe a couple times and THEN tinker with it, you can pick up on what works and what wont. So many folks have worked out the issues of all the recipes that tinkering will only mess with your mind until you can look at it and say --oh yeah thats why that happened. Remember....a shitty mash or wash will only make shitty hooch. And if you add a whole bunch of extras to the wash that the yeast doesn't NEED, its a waste of money anyway."