 Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered
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so I was pondering and thinking. I happened to see a video on youtube where a guy was using a countertop distiller unit. He flashed what he said was a license to produce upto 10,000 gallons of alcohol for fuel. my question is do you think this guy has a legit license? Will the ttb give a license for one of the small units. I was thinking of getting one to make extracts and such.....I would really like to go legal but is it even worth it if its for my own use. who knows I may even convert my lawn mower and moped to run on E85:)
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 Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
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if you are licensed to make fuel, how will making alcoholic beverages suddenly become legal for you????? 
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Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered
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well I understand that even making for oneself consumption is illegal. just more out of wondering how people legally make and sell essences and extracts using alcohol to distill them. Yes I also probably would make for myself. I am also very interested in the fuel aspect of it. I'm wondering how small a still they will allow before they say, wait your using it for consumption instead of fuel. I have a few friends that have go-carts that are interested in converting to burn alcohol....fast I hear will be faster!!
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
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"fj...they dont use alcohol to distill them - they use the still to distill them. Know what I mean????
As far as size of still---- well a 5 gallon mash will yield 3 quarts of distillate, so a 7 or 8 gallon boiler would be minimual I would think. Then you will have to redistill that and then you get 1/5 of that - but when all is said and done most stills will not produce 199 proof distillate. It will burn in a cup or on a spoon but you will have to extract all the water to get it to burn in a internal combustion engine. I guess if you kept destilling it sooner or later it would be usable as fuel but damn -- how much would it cost as compared to gas????"
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Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered
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doesnt seem worth it when it think more about it.
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered
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If you get a distilling license for fuel then sooner or later the Feds will come to visit. They will want to see your log books & any refined product on hand better be rendered undrinkable or you will be in serious trouble. A license means you give them permission to enter your premises anytime they wish. Do you really need that kind of trouble? Only a fool gets a fuel license & then make drinking liquor.
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Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered
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"Anyone can get the TTB permit to produce up to 10,000 gallons per year; but, only for use as e85 fuel not for consumption. I know the vide your talking about; Though he is making a run with the Mr. Distiller counter top still one gallon at a time it is still legal to make the alcohol just so long as it is going into his gas tank and not his glass. But since he"s running it inside his kitchen it is illegal.
By taking a drink of the distillate he is committing a felony!
Any alcohol you produce from your still can not be removed from the property until is has been denatured; made undrinkable, and can only be used in your own vehicle.
The permit does not allow you to run the still in your home; it must be ran in an outside building; garage or shed, where no one sleeps. That building must be locked when you are not in it as must the storage containers for your e85.
You do not need the permit to distill essence oils or water but you do if you produce any alcohol during the process even though alcohol is a by product of fermentation and not distillation.
To apply for the permit you must already have your still set up and ready to run, complete with adequate storage space for your distillate but you can not run the still until you have the license in hand.
Once you have your system in place; including fermentor, heat source, boiler, still, condenser, and storage vessels in a locked out building you file the application and wait. You will get a phone call in about 6 to 8 weeks for a telephonic interview and if you pass it you will get a visit from the BATF.
Yes they send an Agent pout to your house to inspect your still and all other equipment to make sure it is safe and you haven"t used it yet and that it is properly set up and in a lockable outhouse at least 50 feet from any living quarters.
If the Agent Ok"s it in about another 8 to 12 weeks you will receive your TBB permit in the mail and then and only then can you start running the operation and you are now a small fuel producing plant and can produce up to 10,000 gallons of distillate per year.
If you produce more then that you will need to apply for medium or even large fuel producer status and that will require a properly zoned commercial building, and an insurance bond and a few other things.
The license never expires; however, it is non-transferable. If you move you must go through the whole process again.
If you are renting a home or apartment you can forget apply a permit unless you can convince your landlord to allow you to produce e85 which will jack up his insurance big time!"
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Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered
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"BTW there was a bill introduced in House last year during the 111th Congress that was forwarded to the Subcommittee on Ways and Means to ratify the act that will legalize home distillation in America for the craft distiller.
There is also a bill that was introduced this year in Washington State that would also allow WA residents to obtain a license ($100) for home distillation. The WA bill is the Craft Distillation Act and would require those licensed to utilize at least 50% of their grains grown in WA State in an attempt to boost their agriculture there.
The Senator that introduced the bill stated that it is already legal for the hobbyist to home brew beer and craft wines and to allow the craft distillation of grain alcohols is a logical step and will raise additional money for each license issued and drive up the sale of local agriculturally grown grains.
I hope they both pass but if the WA bill passes and is signed into law it will pave the way for other states to legalize craft distillation.
New Zealand and Australia now both allow for home distillation originally they where worried that it would drive down the sale or commercially produced hard liquors like whiskey, rum, etc, but it had the opposite effect. It actually drove up the sale of commercially produced spirits!"
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered
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I can not see where Washington State passing a craft distilling law will make any difference. Distilling is Federal based & therefore outside the boundaries of the state. I can see people in WA paying$100 to get the license & the BATF using the list of licensees as a road map for kicking in doors. Only the Feds can make craft distilling legal.
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That is not necessarily true. The laws become quiet convoluded, but there are actually many examples where the state law overrides the federal law.
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered
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Yes but, marijuana laws in CA come to mind. The Feds have made some busts there even though the state says it's OK. I would expect BATF to make a heavy showing at the front end to discourage everyone.
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If memory serves, legalization of marijuana in CA got voted down.
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Originally Posted by: Admin  That is not necessarily true. The laws become quiet convoluted, but there are actually many examples where the state law overrides the federal law. I've always heard that Federal law can override any state law *IF* the Feds wish to enforce the Federal law. Such as the MMJ laws. The feds can walk into any MMJ clinic that exists in the USA and bust everyone if they wished to. I believe they don't because it would initiate a Supreme Court decision that might change the Federal law and they don't want to risk it. Is my belief out of date?
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I certainly do not profess to be a lawyer, so do not take this as anything but an opinion, but my reading on the subject showed federal laws to override state laws only where covered within the constitution. As craft distillation was (obviously) not covered in the constitution, the federal law will exist only where a state law does not conflict with it. At this point I know of only one state where this is the case, and it is on third party information (albeit from a group of lawyers).
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Hmmmm, I wonder if this Supreme Court decision has been overruled since it was written: This decision of 1842 seems pretty conclusive: From the page: "The ruling upheld the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution in which federal laws take precedence over state laws when regulating the same activity. The Commerce Clause of the Constitution is one major avenue for the national government to exercise its authority over states. From the 1930s New Deal era through the 1970s the federal government significantly grew by increasingly regulating many facets of life. By the 1980s states' rights proponents began to reverse the trend. Debates over federal controls continued into the late 1990s focused on proposed national health care reforms.
At the center of issues intensively debated by the founders of the United States was federalism, the distribution of power between the federal and state governments. Dispute over the degree of centralization of political power in the United States highlighted by debates between Alexander Hamilton and JamesMadison led to formation of the first political parties in the nation. As a result, the Supremacy Clause was written into Article IV of the Constitution providing the primary basis for the federal government's power over states. The article states the "acts of the Federal Government are operational as supreme law throughout the Union . . . enforceable in all courts of the land. The states have no power to impede, burden, or in any manner control the operation of "federal law."
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And again, as with many laws, after several revisions they can begin to conflict with themselves. We have even personally seen TTB agents that disagree on some portions of the law, so they cannot even navigate their way through it all. That is why I put a disclaimer on such posts, that it is not to be taken as legal advice. 
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I hear ya man! The laws in the USA have gone beyond stupid. I think its a case of job justification in the Congress. Even at the county level. A few years ago, my county passed a law that defined the parts of the buttocks that a swim suit had to cover. I heard the law itself was something like 200 pages on nothing but describing a human butt cheek. Pretty funny! 
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I had a distribution contract once, where the distributor insisted on having a lawyer draw up the contract instead of us handling it. When things started to fall apart and I had a new lawyer check it, he called it 'two pages of substance, and the rest was billable hours.' And when you consider that many of our laws these days are just addendum after addendum from original laws written decades (or more) ago, they start to conflict within the same law.
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"Whoowee...and after all that........ its still not legal to have a still for the purposses of distillation of spirits or the spirit from the use of said unit. No matter how great or small the unit or the quantity of such spirit.  But who cares, I cant fathom the ATF raiding your home over 2 or 3 quarts of ill gotten spirit, But I could be wrong.  :"
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered
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Well most likely nothing will come to pass unless you start selling the stuff. The Feds take a dim view on getting 'cheated' out of 'their' tax revenue. Of course I still say that applying for a license in WA is like crawling over the fence and waving the proverbial red flag at the bull.
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