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Offline RCRed  
#61 Posted : Sunday, June 16, 2013 1:45:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: old stump juicer Go to Quoted Post
Big Mo I can't get it to come up.
I googled it and got to the list of codes but the two you mentioned were not listed.
Same here.
Offline Bayou-Ruler  
#62 Posted : Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:06:41 AM(UTC)
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Well at the end of the day, it is what it is... If you are in the USA and you produce distilled spirits without a permit it is illegal.
Bayou Ethanol
AFP-LA-15027
www.bayouethanol.com
Offline BigMo  
#63 Posted : Sunday, June 16, 2013 9:38:30 AM(UTC)
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"here is where I found it
I googled """"title 27 CFR"""" then

Title 27 "º Chapter I "º Subchapter A "º Part 29 "º Subpart C "º Section 29.49
Title 27 "º Chapter I "º Subchapter A "º Part 29 "º Subpart C "º Section 29.51"
Offline old stump juicer  
#64 Posted : Sunday, June 16, 2013 2:31:23 PM(UTC)
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Bayou, I guess if we had sneeked across the southern border with 10 kilos of weed on our back we would be patriots instead of law breakers; Funny how this stuff works aint it!
Offline jf77389  
#65 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 9:26:20 AM(UTC)
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I don't know what the hell these people are up to, but it is just not worth the risk to me. I got rid of all my stuff
Offline old stump juicer  
#66 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:00:44 AM(UTC)
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All I have is a boiler and probably will just use it for peanuts now, shame I really wanted to try my hand at making spirits.
I'll just give the hombrewing hobby a try since it was finally legalized here in Bama.
Offline CzBrewer  
#67 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:00:05 AM(UTC)
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Thinking I'm gonna get rid of everything but the boiler, too. It's not worth the risk...and it is risky with all the d*#n spying these days. I suppose I now have a nice new hammered copper planter, and a little pocket change from selling the other parts as scrap... Sad
Offline scotty  
#68 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:11:10 AM(UTC)
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Just in case the government is monitoring us. Now they know you folks will not be distilling lol lol
Offline flht01  
#69 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:56:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CzBrewer Go to Quoted Post
Thinking I'm gonna get rid of everything but the boiler, too. It's not worth the risk...and it is risky with all the d*#n spying these days. I suppose I now have a nice new hammered copper planter, and a little pocket change from selling the other parts as scrap... Sad


I'm assuming the "list" required from Rick should also be considered as the still/boiler being registered under the buyers name as the "owner".
So, if getting rid of your equipment is the choice you've made to avoid any future problems with the Fed's, the following may be of interest.
FYI


§ 29.55 Registry of stills and distilling apparatus.
< ... Snipped ... >
(c) Change in location or ownership. Where any distilling apparatus registered under this section is to be removed to another location, sold or otherwise disposed of, the registrant shall, prior to the removal or disposition, file a letter notice with the appropriate TTB officer. The letter notice will show the intended method of disposition (sale, destruction, or othewise), the name and complete address of the person to whom disposition will be made, and the purpose for which the apparatus will be used. After removal, sale, or other disposal, the person having possession, custody, or control of any distilling apparatus intended for use in distilling shall immediately register the still or distilling apparatus on its being set up or, if already set up, immediately on obtaining possession, custody, or control. The registrant shall also comply with the procedures prescribed in this chapter for amendment of the registration or permit application.
Offline CzBrewer  
#70 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 9:18:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: scotty Go to Quoted Post
Just in case the government is monitoring us. Now they know you folks will not be distilling lol lol


I'm assuming they're not that dumb...to take us at our word that we're "not distilling." If only! RollEyes I'm sure they'll still send a letter or pay a visit, if it comes to that. Not sure I need the worry, that's all.. But, I would certainly support legalizing hobby stills, because I don't see any good reason not to.

And, try as I might to say I'm not gonna continue...I'm still toying with the idea of continuing. LOL! Maybe I'll just play it by ear... I'm for sure gonna run the stuff I have bubbling right now. No need to be *that* hasty in quitting. Wink Guess you could say I'm on the fence a bit.
Offline CzBrewer  
#71 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 9:21:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: flht01 Go to Quoted Post
I'm assuming the "list" required from Rick should also be considered as the still/boiler being registered under the buyers name as the "owner".
So, if getting rid of your equipment is the choice you've made to avoid any future problems with the Fed's, the following may be of interest.
FYI


§ 29.55 Registry of stills and distilling apparatus.
< ... Snipped ... >
(c) Change in location or ownership. Where any distilling apparatus registered under this section is to be removed to another location, sold or otherwise disposed of, the registrant shall, prior to the removal or disposition, file a letter notice with the appropriate TTB officer. The letter notice will show the intended method of disposition (sale, destruction, or othewise), the name and complete address of the person to whom disposition will be made, and the purpose for which the apparatus will be used. After removal, sale, or other disposal, the person having possession, custody, or control of any distilling apparatus intended for use in distilling shall immediately register the still or distilling apparatus on its being set up or, if already set up, immediately on obtaining possession, custody, or control. The registrant shall also comply with the procedures prescribed in this chapter for amendment of the registration or permit application.


This just keeps getting more complicated. I'm not gonna make first contact!! lol..... I'll....I'll....I don't know. Confused
Offline dieselduo  
#72 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 9:32:44 AM(UTC)
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Well there ya go! can't even get rid of it without an inquisition
Offline RCRed  
#73 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:33:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CzBrewer Go to Quoted Post
I'm assuming they're not that dumb...to take us at our word that we're "not distilling." If only! RollEyes I'm sure they'll still send a letter or pay a visit, if it comes to that. .


I for the life of me cannot see what the fear is from owning something that is legal to buy.

If you are in Texas and a dry county, you CAN have up to one quart of distilled - but no more. And hundreds of gallons of beer or wine.

Another point: Given the Supreme courts recent ruling on voter registration, that the state has to take the "word" of the registrant that they are a legal citizen, why would it be different here? Now, if my neighbors and friends tell them oh, yea, you can get whiskey there, I'd suspect I'd be cooked, but...NONE of that is happenin', nor, will it, So, there ain' no story to tell-I'm not conducting an illegal enterprise for profit-not my idea of the American dream, boys.

We are still innocent until proven guilty-and owning an apparatus is not probable cause. No different than owning a firearm and bullets, or a car and a bottle of alcohol at the same time... Both can cause harm when used improperly- but it is not a crime until that happens.

Personally, I'm taking Bayou's route. I can say I have applied and they can visit too. I'm lucky enough to be able to meet the regs of DSP small. Right down to a seperate, clean and secure building for it.
Offline John Barleycorn  
#74 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:05:14 PM(UTC)
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"
Quote:
I for the life of me cannot see what the fear is from owning something that is legal to buy.


Perhaps a few excerpts from 26 USC 5601(a): ([COLOR=""#FF0000""]emphasis added[/COLOR])
Quote:
(a) Offenses
Any person who"”
(1) Unregistered stills
has in his [COLOR=""#FF0000""]possession[/COLOR] or custody, or under his control, [COLOR=""#FF0000""]any still[/COLOR] or distilling apparatus set up [COLOR=""#FF0000""]which is not registered[/COLOR], as required by section 5179 (a); or

(2) Failure to file application
engages in the business of a distiller or processor [COLOR=""#FF0000""]without having filed application for and received notice[/COLOR] of registration, as required by section 5171 (c); or

(6) Distilling on prohibited premises
uses, or [COLOR=""#FF0000""]possesses[/COLOR] with intent to use, [COLOR=""#FF0000""]any still, boiler, or other utensil[/COLOR] for the purpose of producing distilled spirits, or aids or assists therein, or causes or procures the same to be done, in any dwelling house, or in any shed, yard, or inclosure connected with such dwelling ....



(8) Unlawful production of distilled spirits
not being a distiller authorized by law to produce distilled spirits, [COLOR=""#FF0000""]produces distilled spirits by distillation[/COLOR] or any other process from any mash, wort, wash, or other material; or ...


shall be[COLOR=""#FF0000""] fined not more than $10,000, or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both[/COLOR], for each such offense.


Ooooh, and this is one of my favorites, Excerpts from 26 USC 5615 ([COLOR=""#FF0000""]emphasis added[/COLOR]):
Quote:
The following [COLOR=""#FF0000""]property shall be forfeited[/COLOR] to the United States:

(1) Unregistered still or distilling apparatus
[COLOR=""#FF0000""]Every still[/COLOR] or distilling apparatus not registered as required by section 5179, [COLOR=""#FF0000""]together with all personal property[/COLOR] in the possession or custody or under the control of the person required by section 5179 to register the still or distilling apparatus, and [COLOR=""#FF0000""]found in the building[/COLOR] or in any yard or inclosure connected with the building in which such still or distilling apparatus is set up;
Any of this helping your eyesight?


Quote:
No different than owning a firearm and bullets, or a car and a bottle of alcohol at the same time.
Nope, it is actually different. And the above is just the tip of the iceberg.

Please don't dismiss the valid concerns of others.

Regards,
--JB"
Offline RCRed  
#75 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:41:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn Go to Quoted Post
Please don't dismiss the valid concerns of others.

Regards,
--JB
I wasn't, sir. That's the problem with text typed in a forum - One cannot tell intentrion or tone.

But lets ask a few questions since you seem to know;

Unregistered stills
has in his possession or custody, or under his control, any still or distilling apparatus set up which is not registered, as required by section 5179 (a); or

Does this apply to parts in a box, not assembled?

Failure to file application
engages in the business of a distiller or processor without having filed application for and received notice of registration, as required by section 5171 (c); or


Does this mean a business where you are retailing or distributing, or simply the process as a private citizen?


Distilling on prohibited premises
uses, or possesses with intent to use, any still, boiler, or other utensil for the purpose of producing distilled spirits, or aids or assists therein, or causes or procures the same to be done, in any dwelling house, or in any shed, yard, or inclosure connected with such dwelling ....


Does this mean a seperate steel framed metal outbuilding (slab, insulated, A/C, 240 and 110 circuts, and over 250 feet from a main dwelling and 400 feet from a rural road on private prroperty? I read that above to mean "Connected to the house".

Also, no law is self enforcing - If it was, over half the american government (including the fool in the White house) would be serving 25 to life. From my chair it seems to be all about how much lawyer one can afford, and what connections that relationship serves. Differing mouthpieces offer differing perspectives on laws, and judges allow it too. I've two fortunes spent on X-wives to prove it.

I asked the supplier if it was illegal to possess the equipment before I bought it over two years ago. I was told it is not in Texas. As I stated before, I will continue my process of application and not operate until that license is granted.

Offline flht01  
#76 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 1:17:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post

<...snipped...>

Personally, I'm taking Bayou's route. I can say I have applied and they can visit too. I'm lucky enough to be able to meet the regs of DSP small.

<...snipped...>


After taking into account all the options that I felt like I had available, I sent in the application for the fuel permit too. Two week and counting ...

I'd sure like to see a thread started that covers applying for and abiding by the rules of the permit. Especially the rules regarding the reports, they seem to be a little vague in the report requirements for an auditor and I'd hate to find out I'm not following protocol in the middle of a visit. BigGrin
Offline John Barleycorn  
#77 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:25:27 PM(UTC)
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"
Quote:
I wasn't, sir. That's the problem with text typed in a forum - One cannot tell intentrion or tone.

Agreed. And please don't mistake my comment for criticism ... it was simply a request to avoid anything that may be interpreted as diminishing the non-sensible actions that our gov't could potentially take against its citizens. The way the laws are written, an aggressive gov't could literally imprison someone who is doing little more than making a little hooch for himself to enjoy on his patio, with no intention to ""defraud"" the gov't. As long as the law fails to distinguish between illicit ""for profit"" enterprise and a hobbyist, we're all potential targets ... and that, at least in my mind, just doesn't make sense.

Please keep in mind that I am not a lawyer (IANAL):
Quote:

Unregistered stills
has in his possession or custody, or under his control, any still or distilling apparatus set up which is not registered, as required by section 5179 (a); or[/COLOR]

Does this apply to parts in a box, not assembled?

Based on my understanding, no. From 27 CFR 29.55(b):
Quote:
(b) When still is set up. A still will be regarded as set up and subject to registry when it is in position over a furnace, or connected with a boiler so that heat may be applied, irrespective of whether a condenser is in position. This rule is intended merely as an illustration and should not be construed as covering all types of stills or condensers requiring registration.


Quote:
Failure to file application
engages in the business of a distiller or processor without having filed application for and received notice of registration, as required by section 5171 (c); or


Does this mean a business where you are retailing or distributing, or simply the process as a private citizen?

My understanding is, if you're doing what a distiller does, then you're engaging in the business of a distiller. From 26 USC § 5002(4):
Quote:
(4) Distiller

The term "distiller" includes any person who"”

(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance,


(B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by fermentation),


(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, or


(D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his possession or use.



Quote:
Distilling on prohibited premises
uses, or possesses with intent to use, any still, boiler, or other utensil for the purpose of producing distilled spirits, or aids or assists therein, or causes or procures the same to be done, in any dwelling house, or in any shed, yard, or inclosure connected with such dwelling ....


Does this mean a seperate steel framed metal outbuilding (slab, insulated, A/C, 240 and 110 circuts, and over 250 feet from a main dwelling and 400 feet from a rural road on private prroperty? I read that above to mean ""Connected to the house"".


This one confuses me ... I'm not sure how to read it. As in, ""what's a shed"" or ""if a separate structure (not a shed) but is built in my 'yard' am I in compliance? But see the following -- this is the area that Rep Bart Stupak was trying to address in H.R. 3949. From 26 USC 5178(a)(1)(B):
Quote:
(B) No distilled spirits plant for the production of distilled spirits shall be located in any dwelling house, in any shed, yard, or inclosure connected with any dwelling house, or on board any vessel or boat, or on premises where beer or wine is made or produced, or liquors of any description are retailed, or on premises where any other business is carried on (except when authorized under subsection (b)).


All that said, do I personally believe that the typical TTB officer is itching to bust some guy who make a few liters of vodka in his garage? No. I think the officer would more likely be interested in joining the fun ... and is probably scratching his head wondering why he has to even bother with small potato stuff like this. However, do I believe the typical TTB officer would pursue a home distiller if ordered to do so (based on current laws)? You bet! If he didn't, he wouldn't be much of an officer.

Perhaps that's the compelling argument?? ... the current laws WRT hobby distilling (solely for personal and family use) are woefully inadequate, and if enforced, would be a waste of gov't resources. So the laws need to be updated.

Regards,
--JB"
Offline RCRed  
#78 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:34:44 AM(UTC)
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IANAL - thank God for that.... I detest the dopey bastids...Of course, I keep one on retainer, it's a lot like keeping a sewage system maintenance contract... U hardly ever need one, but when you do....

Actually JB, your voice is one of the stronger advisories here, and I take what you say fairly seriously.
flth01 wrote:
I'd sure like to see a thread started that covers applying for and abiding by the rules of the permit. Especially the rules regarding the reports, they seem to be a little vague in the report requirements for an auditor and I'd hate to find out I'm not following protocol in the middle of a visit.
Heya flth01 - I've written process/procedures for a number of years for large datacenters, and these must all meet something called an ITIL standard, and carry strict auditing guidelines.

The basic premise in any process (and subsequent audit) is to record everything pertinent about a process.. start to finish, no single step left undocumented or recorded.. After all, an audit is meant to ensure the rules of a process and procedure have been followed in actual deployment. In my world, that means using best practices for configuration, and operational processes to ensure the computing resources are always available and changes are delivered w/o breaking things. And believe me, computer jocks can break thinkgs you'd never expect...

In this context, I take that to mean, exact recording of each batch, from grain weights, water (source, ph levels), fermentation factors (how the mash was made), distilling factors, and dispostion of the output product and how it was used/disposed of, etc..

However, Bayou has gotten his, and probably can speak more clearly to what is expected. I tend to produce too much white paper information, and almost always end up trimin' it down.. but at corporate, too much is always better than not enough when it comes to auditing. I try to answer questions before they get asked, but I am not always perfect, and my perceptions tend to follow a scientists view, and not an auditors....
Offline CzBrewer  
#79 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:58:16 AM(UTC)
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JB and RCRed: I see both of your points...and they are well taken. Strangely, I agree with both of you! I do not like cowering from my govt--pisses me off. Being a feisty libertarian and a local coordinator for Campaign for Liberty, I'm much more comfortable fighting the govt than I am fearing it. lol... Of course, I'm usually on the "right" side of the law when I'm fighting for liberty. This time, I'm not. The only issue I have is they can take my house (and everything else). That's a big, effing deal. Gonna have to let the hubby weigh in on this...it's his house, too.
Offline old stump juicer  
#80 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 2:48:19 AM(UTC)
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Yes they probably would like all our homes so that they can house those illegal mexicans.
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