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There's advantages as well as drawbacks to both sides of the fence. Those that have been on the illegal side will know what the percks and drawbacks are. For me it was clear that I needed to be legal. With the way some people are around here, it would be a matter of time before I'd get caught so I went legal. Being legal keeps the law off my back and I doubt very seriously that the feds are going say anything to the state about it since I am legal in their eyes. Being illegal is for the birds man. You're constantly worried if you gave something to someone you shouldn't have. You get extremely paranoid and stay that way for months on end. And your work load doubles because you have to jump through hoops to get supplies to make distilled spirits. Being legal takes the away alot of these things, but unlike being illegal you have to keep records which can be a good thing and help refine your craft. You also don't have to jump through hoops to get supplies either. Once we get this wonder hobby legalized, you be able to enjoy this hobby even more.
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Hey. You said the "S" word! (sell) Never sold any and never will. Give away sure.
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Originally Posted by: Hokey  Hey. You said the "S" word! (sell) Never sold any and never will. Give away sure. Word, that. I offer tasting samples on occasion to determine if my taste buds are being honest w/me... |
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" Originally Posted by: knightmare1015 Being illegal is for the birds man. You're constantly worried if you sold something to someone you shouldn't have.
<SNIP>
And your work load doubles because you have to jump through hoops to get supplies to make distilled spirits. This is not what we're about. The moment you accept money you're no longer a hobbyist, you're a professional. If you're in this to make a buck, then you should be running a legal operation. If you're not, then you get what you deserve. The legalization effort is for hobbyists, not professional criminals. It's strictly about personal and family use, and not for sale, period. If you're not legal, and you're selling, then I don't want anything to do with you. You'll just add a stink to our hobby that's difficult to eliminate ... and it makes legalization less likely."
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I forgot to clarify - I sell NOTHING - It's not my intention to sell any thing. Not now, or even later at this point. I originally(prior to 12/23/2012) got into this to be able to provide(distilled water, oils, spirits, fuels, and medicinals), should we in America suffer a breakdown of basic goods or the ability to get them. Since that time my view has changed and I am only a hobbyist...That means being as legal as I can be, but selling nothing. I don't even let folks watch it run, as it ain' their hobby, It's mine... |
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Ok I fixed it. I have no intentions of selling anything or giving anything away either. I distill because I love to do it.
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Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn This is not what we're about. The moment you accept money you're no longer a hobbyist, you're a professional. If you're in this to make a buck, then you should be running a legal operation. If you're not, then you get what you deserve.
The legalization effort is for hobbyists, not professional criminals. It's strictly about personal and family use, and not for sale, period. If you're not legal, and you're selling, then I don't want anything to do with you. You'll just add a stink to our hobby that's difficult to eliminate ... and it makes legalization less likely. For you to think that I am getting into this for money is a stupid move on your part. I distill because I love doing it. I have put years of my life into going legal on a small scale and was finally able to go legal after 7 years. If I wanted to be a "professional criminal" don't you think that I would've gotten a bigger still? I haven't even made my first legal run yet.
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If home distillation of ethanol (without the fuel production permit) is illegal how are you doing it legally??
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Originally Posted by: heeler If home distillation of ethanol (without the fuel production permit) is illegal how are you doing it legally?? I have a license from the TTB:  I went through the red tape. The original federal license took 2 weeks and I spent around $35 bucks for the nessecary records to obtain the license. Now after my distilling tower arrived, I had to create an amendment so that my distilling tower could be registered. I had to wait 8 weeks so that the changes could take affect. My goal is help get home distilling legalized so people don't have to go through the red tape like I did. And I'm still not done yet either. I am currently in the process of saving up my money to obtain a state license from the VABC. If home distilling becomes legal on both the federal and state levels, then I would've went through the red tape for nothing. The first year will cost me about $530.00 bucks which includes and application and background check fee. Afterwards it will be $450.00 bucks per year to renew it.
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I was going to ask how you handled your bonding requirements, but I see that your permit is for alcohol fuel production (rather than for beverage purposes). I suppose if a few liters here or there are consumed by humans rather than machines, you're in good shape. But if those few liters are sitting on oak, I would keep them out of plain view in case an inspector paid you a visit.
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Here's another problem that should be addressed as well. The federal license should be good enough for the state's requirements as well. Unfortunately most states doesn't see it that way which is sad.
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Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn I was going to ask how you handled your bonding requirements, but I see that your permit is for alcohol fuel production (rather than for beverage purposes). I suppose if a few liters here or there are consumed by humans rather than machines, you're in good shape. But if those few liters are sitting on oak, I would keep them out of plain view in case an inspector paid you a visit. That's one of the reasons why I chose the fuel side of things. I can't really afford the bond. Now there is a way around this and it is legal. The still has to be bigger than 1 gallon in capacity to be registered. Now I am not really sure about this mind you. But every person I've talked to has told me that a small counter top air cooled still doesn't have to be registered. I think I may have to check on that to be sure. I hear you on keeping a few things out of sight because even though I am legal, some of my neighbors can be the nosiest people you'll ever see.
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I'd love to go before congress and senate and do a live Q&A session on getting home distilling legalized and why they should. The VABC has even said that they'd rather police it rather than prevent it because they're fighting a losing battle.
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" Originally Posted by: knightmare1015 For you to think that I am getting into this for money is a stupid move on your part. I distill because I love doing it. I have put years of my life into going legal on a small scale and was finally able to go legal after 7 years. If I wanted to be a ""professional criminal"" don't you think that I would've gotten a bigger still? I haven't even made my first legal run yet. Whoa! ... slow down and take a breath, sir. Now I understand your PM ... I didn't notice this post. Please read your original post again, but read it through another person's eyes. It sounded to me like you were talking from experience. You didn't mention liberty, or parity with beer/winemaking, or freedom for personal use. But you did mention paranoia due to questionable distribution, increases in workload, and supply chain issues. This type of language isn't a part of the typical hobbyist's vocabulary ... at least it's not what I am accustomed to hearing. Listen, I am adamant about the distinction between a hobbyist (a person involved in a recreational activity) and a ""moonshiner"" (a person motivated by pecuniary interests). My feelings and statements about folks who sell are authentic, I won't apologize for them. However, if this doesn't apply to you, I am more than happy to apologize to you for my mistaken assumption. Fair enough? Sincerely, --JB"
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Well since your making fuel etoh and not hooch etoh then in all reality you prolly dont even need the permit --really!! Even if the man showed up and you were truely making fuel - showed them the jugs that have been denatured and not consumable and not for sale, what could they really do?? I bet nothing. But if total legality is what you want then of course thats the way to go for your piece of mind.
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Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn Whoa! ... slow down and take a breath, sir. Now I understand your PM ... I didn't notice this post.
Please read your original post again, but read it through another person's eyes. It sounded to me like you were talking from experience. You didn't mention liberty, or parity with beer/winemaking, or freedom for personal use. But you did mention paranoia due to questionable distribution, increases in workload, and supply chain issues. This type of language isn't a part of the typical hobbyist's vocabulary ... at least it's not what I am
accustomed to hearing.
Listen, I am adamant about the distinction between a hobbyist (a person involved in a recreational activity) and a "moonshiner" (a person motivated by pecuniary interests). My feelings and statements about folks who sell are authentic, I won't apologize for them. However, if this doesn't apply to you, I am more than happy to apologize to you for my mistaken assumption.
Fair enough?
Sincerely,
--JB That's what I meant dude. Trust me when I say I have no intentions of selling anything that I distill. It's what I like to do. But things are worked out now. Originally Posted by: heeler Well since your making fuel etoh and not hooch etoh then in all reality you prolly dont even need the permit --really!! Even if the man showed up and you were truely making fuel - showed them the jugs that have been denatured and not consumable and not for sale, what could they really do?? I bet nothing. But if total legality is what you want then of course thats the way to go for your piece of mind. That license gives me piece of mind basically. I've got too many nosy neighbors, and I just don't want any trouble with the law either. Also with home distilling being legal, I can distill anywhere and not just be attached to one address and not have any limits. Once I get my state license, my limit of 10,000 gallons will be cut in half. The state seems to be alot more greedy than the feds are.
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" Originally Posted by: knightmare1015 That's what I meant dude. Trust me when I say I have no intentions of selling anything that I distill. It's what I like to do. But things are worked out now.
That license gives me piece of mind basically. I've got too many nosy neighbors, and I just don't want any trouble with the law either. Also with home distilling being legal, I can distill anywhere and not just be attached to one address and not have any limits. Once I get my state license, my limit of 10,000 gallons will be cut in half. The state seems to be alot more greedy than the feds are. You asked about an airstill that BH sells.......hmmmm I bet 5000-10,000 gallons through an airstill is REALLY gonna be a test of endurance. Hope ya get it worked out tho. Also I wonder if the airstill unit will creat a spirit of enough proof to use as fuel???  "
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"Knightmare,
There is no fuel permit in Virginia, all they have is a distillation permit to make alcohol for beverages. It sounds like you are going to end up with a federal fuel permit and a state beverage permit. If you are going to pay the $530 to get a VA state beverage permit, you might want to get a federal DSP (Distilled Spirits Plant). I checked on the federal DSP and the only cost is for a bond which should cost about $60.00. To get the VA beverage distillation permit you need to post it in your local newspaper for 2 weeks in a row. There is also something about notifying all of your neighbors - not sure who does that. It appeared to me that the VA permit was much more of a pain in the butt, not to mention the cost, then the federal one. I suggest that you store your distilate in the lawn mower shed so if anyone comes looking, you can tell them that you are going to put in the lawn mower. Alli"
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Originally Posted by: heeler You asked about an airstill that BH sells.......hmmmm I bet 5000-10,000 gallons through an airstill is REALLY gonna be a test of endurance. Hope ya get it worked out tho. Also I wonder if the airstill unit will creat a spirit of enough proof to use as fuel??? No this was for personal use and not for fuel. I'm told you'd only get roughly one quart at best which is definately not even enough to run a push mower. The still I have is also not enough to make fuel and I also have the wrong tower as well. Basically I have to get another tower and I thought that if I could swing it, I'd get the little air still for personal use while I am at it. Unfortunately that is not looking good right now either. Originally Posted by: Alli Knightmare,
There is no fuel permit in Virginia, all they have is a distillation permit to make alcohol for beverages. It sounds like you are going to end up with a federal fuel permit and a state beverage permit. If you are going to pay the $530 to get a VA state beverage permit, you might want to get a federal DSP (Distilled Spirits Plant). I checked on the federal DSP and the only cost is for a bond which should cost about $60.00. To get the VA beverage distillation permit you need to post it in your local newspaper for 2 weeks in a row. There is also something about notifying all of your neighbors - not sure who does that. It appeared to me that the VA permit was much more of a pain in the butt, not to mention the cost, then the federal one. I suggest that you store your distilate in the lawn mower shed so if anyone comes looking, you can tell them that you are going to put in the lawn mower. Alli Thanks Alli. The more I look into it, the worse things get. The VABC agent has basically tried to pull a fast one on me. He did say that as long as I put "fuel alcohol" on the license and stayed at 5,000 gallons or less per year I would not have to get a bond. But from what you've told me, it seems that since I'm making fuel. I'd be better off of either talking to the TTB because they were extremely helpful in getting the fuel permit. Or I can just keep ultra quiet about it. After all, I'm definately not selling anything I distill and I have no desire to do so and as far as the feds go, I am legal so why should they say anything. We need to get this hobby legalized because no body should have to go this much red tape.
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I wish to say thank you for all of the information. It appears that either I didn't do enough research or they've changed things again which is not uncommon. This is one of the many reasons I'm joining the cause to get the home distilling hobby legalized. Other than collecting additional tax money, I don't see why they shouldn't legalize it. After all we're paying taxes on the stuff we use. I guess this boils down to greed which is stupid.
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