Has anyone out west received any kind of letter?

One of our members was told he did not qualify for an AFP because he did not have an outbuilding to house the plant in. I don't remember anything in the regs that stated that, but since I already had a detached garage, I may have paid no attention. I would call them to be sure.

Tom
Hobby Distiller's Association

I was denied for not having an out building. Simple solution would have been to put a shed out in my back yard, but I plan on moving soon so the shed idea is on hold.

Last week I sent a email to my Congressman regarding my concerns about the letters being sent out by the TTB. To begin with the letters are very poorly constructed and seem to a cross between a demand for action (you better get a permit) and an informational notice (did you know that to distill alcohol you need a permit) and there is no timeline for obtaining a permit mentioned in the letter. My emailr was then sent to Tom Hogue who is the proud author of the Notice about the Florida raids in March and I have copied his response below.

I think what bothers me the most is the $500,000 fine noted in the TTB letters going out now. Mr. Hogue quotes 18 USC 3571 as the source of the $500,000 fine. To begin with, the $500K fine applies to corporations, not individuals and also, 18 USC 3571 (e) says that if there is another law that specifies a lower fine than called for in this law, the lower fine shall prevail. In the case of operating a still without a permit, 26 USC Code 5601(a)(1) says the maximum fine is $10,000. I know that $10,000 is a lot of money that most of us don't have, but as I have said previously, this maximum fine is for hard core moonshiners, not hobby distillers,however, my point is that the TTB is overstating the possible fines. Robert Angelo is the Deputy Director of the Trade investigators Division and signed the letters.

Attached below is the response I received from Mr. Hogue. Chris Jones is an aid in Congressman Wittman's office.

From: Hogue, Thomas K. [mailto:XXXXXXXXXXXXX]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:07 PM
To: Jones, Chris
Subject: RE: TTB letters

Chris,
Congress did not provide for a personal use exemption for the production of distilled spirits as they did for beer and wine. Consequently, there are some significant Federal penalties associated with the illegal production of distilled spirits. $500,000 is the maximum penalty per 18 USC 3571, which increases all penalties under federal statutes.
TTB has been reaching out to persons who have been identified as having purchased stills or still equipment to let them know that they need to obtain the necessary Federal permits and bonds before distilling alcohol.
Persons who receive the letter do not need to respond. However, if they wish to distill alcohol, they should visit the distilled spirits page of the TTB website for more information at http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/index.shtml.
Hope this helps.
Tom (Hogue - TTB)

Tom Cowdrey
Hobby Distiller's Association

I received a "Big Brother" letter yesterday which included the form letter and press release about Florida. My wife opened the mail and was not happy at all. I am very disappointed that my private information was passed on to the federal agency from Brewhaus and understand that other vendors were in the same situation. I am not sure why the information couldn't have been destroyed after a reasonable time period, but that is water over the dam at this point. Now, I am on some "list" and wouldn't put it past them to ask the local authorities to investigate since there is no way they have the resources. Needless to say, I will not have any equipment or untaxed liquor in my possession. I would like to think the current movement toward some home distillation allowance could gain enough monentum to pass through congress, etc, but I think this is a long-shot to say the least. Our government is interested in only one thing: increasing tax revenue - no matter where or how, and imposing ridiculous laws to intimidate the few individuals that still pay taxes. How else can you fund the majority of our population receiving government benefits? This will be my last post on this forum and I am sure many will "flame" me, etc. I don't need or want any agency breaking down my door because they think I may have "moonshine". Absolutely ridiculous waste of time and money.

"Hi CHM,



The only thing I'm going to flame you for is saying, ""This will be my last post ...."" :) Keep on posting and remain a member of our community! And help us get our hobby legalized!

Since you received a letter, you might want to visit the HDA website (http://www.hobbydistillersassociation.org). Go to the legalization tab and select ""State Laws by State"" so you can determine if there's any laws in your state that prevent ownership/possession of distilling equipment. Then perhaps join the HDA. You can join for free as a ""Non-Hobbyist Supporter.""

As for turning over personal information ...
It's a matter of law. Manufacturers/vendors of distilling equipment are required to maintain records for three years, and these records must be made available for ""inspection"" by the TTB (it's in 27 CFR I). There's really no way around this. Unfortunately, our government has decided to use this administrative requirement as tool for harassing hobbyists.

Regards,
--JB"

"Emphasis added


The ""inspection"" part is what gives them authority to obtain the records. I suppose, technically, there's really nothing that gives them authority to maintain a database of personal information and take any action without cause ... only to inspect ... maybe some clever lawyer could weasle around that somehow. I also wonder if the information could be requested via FIA? Oh well ...."

Just received my third form letter. Count is 1 to my home and 2 to my work address as I occasionally have merchandise shipped here. This is even more costly if they can't even manage who they've already threatened.

"Only in America ...."

Jerimia,

See my post number 208 in this thread. You say you got a letter which means your name was sent to the TTB by a supplier or manufacturer of stills and still parts, therefore the TTB assumes you "may" have some intent to distill alcohol. While I don't agree that the letter is well constructed, I certainly agree it is threatening. There are several things you can do with the still you purchased, 1) put is on display in your home as a décor and not use it at all in which case no registration is required, 2) distill water or oils in which case you are required to send the TTB a letter explaining your intended use and it becomes registered for those uses, 3) open a distillery and apply for a DSP (Distilled Spirits Plant) and be ready to jump thru all of the hoops both federal and state involved in that process. BTW, DSPs are not allowed on residential land, 4) apply for an Alcohol Fuel Plant Permit - costs nothing, your still will be registered and the permit offers you a modicum of protection as long as you use common sense in and around your Fuel Plant, 5) throw it away or give it away - not recommended or 6) do nothing. If you notice in Tom Hogue's response to my questions to Congressman Wittman's aid Chris Jones, he states that no response is required to these letters so you don't have to do anything.

Now, according to federal statutes, with the exception of #1 above you are required to register a still. You are also required to notify the TTB in the case of #5 (disposal/sale/etc.). IF you choose going the AFP route, your still is registered. Will the TTB think you might be drinking some of the "fuel"? Most likely but they have no proof unless they catch you in the act. If you do nothing they know damn well you are using it for one reason and one reason only, alcohol to drink. For this reason, several of us on this forum and at Hobby Distiller's Association are suggesting everyone who owns a still apply for an AFP, letter or no letter. If enough people apply for a fuel plant permit and we bury them in applications, maybe they will think twice before sending out another threatening letter. Use the paper form and keep a copy of everything you send them.

If you want more detail, send me a PM.

Tom
Hobby Distiller's Association