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Offline Squabble  
#1 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:43:46 AM(UTC)
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"hello! i'm new to the world of distilling and have a few questions i can't seem to find the answers to. first, a little back info to get started:

i purchased a small copper alembic pot still recently, with the intention of making absinthe from herbs grown in my garden. i found a recipe on-line that said to take 1.5 L of a 45% abv or higher neutral spirit and add a certain amount of herbs to it. i chose a 100 proof vodka to use. soak for 24 hrs and then add .75 L (half the amount of alcohol) of water. strain and pour into the still and begin. here are my questions:

1. what temperature am i shooting for? i read that ethanol boils at 78 degrees Celsius and i assumed that that is the temp. i'm trying to reach. do i then try to level off at 78 degrees for as long as possible to collect only ethanol? when i did this i was left with a very small amount of distillate and a very large amount of leftover stuff in my still. i'm getting about 600mL from 4.5L of wash. that seems very small to me.

2. should i be bringing the mix up to a higher temperature? bring it to a boil? do i try to raise the temperature slowly until it's boiling and then bring it down?

3. i have been throwing out the first 50mL of distillate as that is acetone and methanol, is that correct?

4. how long does this go on for? is there a percentage of alcohol that i'm going to get based on how much total liquid goes into the pot before distillation? is there any way to predict how long my distilling will last based on volume?

5. can i use the stuff that's left over in the pot for my next batch in place of water? will it ruin the next batch or help?

i realize this may seem like really basic questions but i'm very new to this whole process. i'm having fun trying to figure it all out but i'm not making anything that tastes that great to drink!

thanks for the help!!!"
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Offline ratflinger  
#2 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:36:13 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: Squabble Go to Quoted Post
hello! i'm new to the world of distilling and have a few questions i can't seem to find the answers to. first, a little back info to get started:

i purchased a small copper alembic pot still recently, with the intention of making absinthe from herbs grown in my garden. i found a recipe on-line that said to take 1.5 L of a 45% abv or higher neutral spirit and add a certain amount of herbs to it. i chose a 100 proof vodka to use. soak for 24 hrs and then add .75 L (half the amount of alcohol) of water. strain and pour into the still and begin. here are my questions:

1. what temperature am i shooting for? i read that ethanol boils at 78 degrees Celsius and i assumed that that is the temp. i'm trying to reach. do i then try to level off at 78 degrees for as long as possible to collect only ethanol? when i did this i was left with a very small amount of distillate and a very large amount of leftover stuff in my still. i'm getting about 600mL from 4.5L of wash. that seems very small to me.

[COLOR=""Red""]More likely 2.5l of wash, correct (1.75 of vodka +750ml water+herbs). 100 proof vodka is only 50% abv so apx 875ml of pure is actually there. Stills are not 100% efficient, so 600ml take off seems about right[/COLOR]

2. should i be bringing the mix up to a higher temperature? bring it to a boil? do i try to raise the temperature slowly until it's boiling and then bring it down?

[COLOR=""Red""]You are not bringing the mix to 78*, you are bringing the head temp to 78*. The mix will be closer to 100*C[/COLOR]

3. i have been throwing out the first 50mL of distillate as that is acetone and methanol, is that correct?

[COLOR=""Red""]yes[/COLOR]

4. how long does this go on for? is there a percentage of alcohol that i'm going to get based on how much total liquid goes into the pot before distillation? is there any way to predict how long my distilling will last based on volume?

[COLOR=""Red""]Total liquid is not important, it's the total abv in the pot that maters. About 3/4 of the total available alcohol will be what you want the, the rest will be heads & tails. Heads & tails can be saved for a future run[/COLOR]

5. can i use the stuff that's left over in the pot for my next batch in place of water? will it ruin the next batch or help?

[COLOR=""Red""]For sour mash you add back some of the leavings, but for your use I would suggest collecting as much alcohol as possible (keeping the heads & tails separate of course) and adding that back to your next run. Don't add this in place of water, it counts as the total abv that you add water to.[/COLOR]

i realize this may seem like really basic questions but i'm very new to this whole process. i'm having fun trying to figure it all out but i'm not making anything that tastes that great to drink!

thanks for the help!!!


See above for your answers"
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Offline ratflinger  
#3 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:48:12 AM(UTC)
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OK, I reread everything & I may have misunderstood the total amount of vodka you actually used. If indeed, you had enough vodka, water & herbs to make 4.5L, then you are short a bunch of alcohol. If your wash only reached 78* then there is where the rest is, still waiting to be released. What you have collected would mostly trash. Dump it back in & rerun the mix. The head temp needs to be at 78*, at that temp the 'steam' will be mostly pure alcohol. The mix will at a higher temp cause as the steam rises, it cools. With the head temp at 78*, higher temp condensates will have cooled and fallen back into the wash, thus giving a pot still some reflux like tendencies. After that it's the standard run, 1st 50ml is trash, then collect the rest in small containers to differentiate between heads, heart & tails. Once you get in to the tails, just run the still out until the head temp is running above 90*. Save the heads & tails for a future run.
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Offline Squabble  
#4 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 5:18:24 AM(UTC)
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"yes, i have been doing ""double"" batches that total 4.5 L of wash to start out with.

after reading everything you have written, i'm wondering if i'm getting accurate temperature readings at the ""head."" (i assume the head is at the top of the still where the thermometer takes the temp. of the steam, correct?) i'm starting to think that the thermometer is taking the temp of the copper pot and not the steam.

also, is it possible to have too small of a still and have it get too hot to get accurate temp. readings? could the copper be getting too hot too fast and making temp. reading impossible?

what's happening is that the thermometer that's at the top of my still (set into a ""pocket"" that is soldered into the very top of the neck) is reading 78 degrees and i'm getting some alcohol coming out of the still but the wash is definitely not rolling or boiling, not even close. it seems barely hot enough to make tea with it! i can keep the temp. reading at a steady 78 degrees for hours with barely a drip coming out of the still and have tons of wash left over.

i'm assuming this is a temp. reading problem then..."
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Offline mtnwalker2  
#5 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 5:23:50 AM(UTC)
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"Consider a few things first.

If you use a quality vodka, there should be no or very few heads and tails in it.

Makeing absinthe, you want all or as much of the herbal flavors as possible. These will come out strongest in the first and last parts of the run. Also, for the louch to be effective, you need the oils that would come off in the tail part of the run. Without them, no louch.

Running a pot still, I never use temp. Run it for a slow steady collection, collect in small increments and later combine to taste. Run till you are getting about 20% ABV. Any of these parts you do cut, could be added to your next run.
Absinthe is different from most brews.

HTH"
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Offline Squabble  
#6 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 6:08:38 AM(UTC)
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"this is very intriguing...

i'm using cheap vodka now, as i didn't want to spend a bunch of money to produce poisonous garbage to start with. it's just 100 proof Mr. Bostons. i went looking for a neutral spirit that was greater than 45% ABV and this is all my local liquor store had.

my first three trials, i have had bad tasting ""absinthe"" with no louche, you hit it right on the head! and i've noticed the first part of the run tasting great and then tasting less and less like the herbs and more like straight alcohol as it goes on.

can you be more specific on the ""slow, steady collection"" part. does that mean the equivalent of medium heat or low heat? am i boiling the liquid? should i see a steady drip, drip, drip or a steady little stream? and then what am i looking for near the end? a cloudy liquid that tastes bad? once the temp. and still reach equilibrium (temp is steady and holding, distillate slows down and almost stops) should i turn the heat up in increments to get it flowing again?

i've been collecting at 50mL to 200mL batches, i just haven't been going long enough i guess. like i said, it sort of seems to just stop the way i'm distilling it.

thanks for all the help, this is great!


Originally Posted by: mtnwalker2 Go to Quoted Post
Consider a few things first.

If you use a quality vodka, there should be no or very few heads and tails in it.

Makeing absinthe, you want all or as much of the herbal flavors as possible. These will come out strongest in the first and last parts of the run. Also, for the louch to be effective, you need the oils that would come off in the tail part of the run. Without them, no louch.

Running a pot still, I never use temp. Run it for a slow steady collection, collect in small increments and later combine to taste. Run till you are getting about 20% ABV. Any of these parts you do cut, could be added to your next run.
Absinthe is different from most brews.

HTH
"
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Offline mtnwalker2  
#7 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 6:31:44 AM(UTC)
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"Yes, collect in steady drips. Forget the temps. and adjust heat to maintain a steady rate of collection. Collect in small portions, cover with a coffee filter or such and allow to breath overnight. Then combine.

Next, are you then doing the second maceration. Roman wormwood and other spices? For more flavor and color? Keep the proof as high as you can."
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Offline Squabble  
#8 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 6:59:09 AM(UTC)
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"yes, i've been doing a lemon balm & hyssop ""tea bag"" for color and flavor. i chose a heavy wormwood in the first part of the recipe that doesn't have it for the second part. however, i've been doing the second part immediately after the distilling, now i'll wait. i can see the oils in the distillate when i try to add water for a louche, but nothing happens. i always figured i didn't have enough anise or fennel.

at the rate you're talking, distilling a 4.5L batch as is would take two to three hours, correct?


Originally Posted by: mtnwalker2 Go to Quoted Post
Yes, collect in steady drips. Forget the temps. and adjust heat to maintain a steady rate of collection. Collect in small portions, cover with a coffee filter or such and allow to breath overnight. Then combine.

Next, are you then doing the second maceration. Roman wormwood and other spices? For more flavor and color? Keep the proof as high as you can.
"
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Offline mtnwalker2  
#9 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 7:14:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Squabble Go to Quoted Post
yes, i've been doing a lemon balm & hyssop ""tea bag"" for color and flavor. i chose a heavy wormwood in the first part of the recipe that doesn't have it for the second part. however, i've been doing the second part immediately after the distilling, now i'll wait. i can see the oils in the distillate when i try to add water for a louche, but nothing happens. i always figured i didn't have enough anise or fennel.

at the rate you're talking, distilling a 4.5L batch as is would take two to three hours, correct?


About right for the time. Traditional absinthe uses 2 different kinds of wormwood. Absinthium for the first, and Roman for the second.
Not sure, but a sugar cube or just sugar may help the oils louch. I don't think you ran long enough to collect many of the oils. They will come over last.
There is an online group devoted to absinthe."
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Offline Squabble  
#10 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 7:40:01 AM(UTC)
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"i don't think i ran it long enough for the louche either.

i've had a hard time finding roman wormwood. to grow or to buy. the other wormwood is readily available.

now, won't i be collecting undesirable alcohols (propanol, butanol, etc.) if i run the still hotter than 78 degrees? that's what i'm confused about with this whole thing. if i turn it up and up and up to keep the drip going, i'm pulling out stuff i don't want, right?


Originally Posted by: mtnwalker2 Go to Quoted Post
About right for the time. Traditional absinthe uses 2 different kinds of wormwood. Absinthium for the first, and Roman for the second.
Not sure, but a sugar cube or just sugar may help the oils louch. I don't think you ran long enough to collect many of the oils. They will come over last.
There is an online group devoted to absinthe.
"
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Offline LWTCS  
#11 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 7:55:29 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Squabble Go to Quoted Post
i don't think i ran it long enough for the louche either.

i've had a hard time finding roman wormwood. to grow or to buy. the other wormwood is readily available.

now, won't i be collecting undesirable alcohols (propanol, butanol, etc.) if i run the still hotter than 78 degrees? that's what i'm confused about with this whole thing. if i turn it up and up and up to keep the drip going, i'm pulling out stuff i don't want, right?



The thing is, you've got your self an Alambic. You will never be able to govern your temps. Only your heat input.

[COLOR=""red""]Originally Posted by mtnwalker2
Yes, collect in steady drips. Forget the temps. and adjust heat to maintain a steady rate of collection. Collect in small portions, cover with a coffee filter or such and allow to breath overnight. [/COLOR]


Do as MW2 says."
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Offline mtnwalker2  
#12 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 8:03:00 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: Squabble Go to Quoted Post
i don't think i ran it long enough for the louche either.

i've had a hard time finding roman wormwood. to grow or to buy. the other wormwood is readily available.

now, won't i be collecting undesirable alcohols (propanol, butanol, etc.) if i run the still hotter than 78 degrees? that's what i'm confused about with this whole thing. if i turn it up and up and up to keep the drip going, i'm pulling out stuff i don't want, right?


You will only be collecting what was in that original bottle of vodka, plus some flavors that you want and oils from the plants.
You are pot stilling for flavors, not refluxing and or makeing deep cuts for a neutral taste."
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Offline Squabble  
#13 Posted : Sunday, January 31, 2010 8:13:20 AM(UTC)
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"a ha! now i understand!!!

i'm only getting out what i put in PLUS the herbs. now it all makes sense. i've been reading reflux still instructions and instructions for people distilling from a mash i guess.

mtnwalker2, thank you so much! this is what i've been looking for, i can't wait to get to work!

thanks everyone!

Originally Posted by: mtnwalker2 Go to Quoted Post
You will only be collecting what was in that original bottle of vodka, plus some flavors that you want and oils from the plants.
You are pot stilling for flavors, not refluxing and or makeing deep cuts for a neutral taste.
"
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Offline tikisteve  
#14 Posted : Monday, February 01, 2010 11:07:44 AM(UTC)
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"I've made plenty of absinthe using all natural herbs, and it sounds like your first maceration isn't long enough. I let mine soak for at least 2 weeks,and then another 2 weeks for the 2nd maceration. From my research you need to also use a higher % of neutral spirit 150 proof or higher. If you don't macerate long enough your anise doesn't have time to totally break down, especially if using star anise, that is what effects your louche.
If you don't distill your own neutral spirits first, then go and buy some higher % sprits. I've heard of people using 151 rum. When I was experimenting with my flavors I actually used everclear instead of my own distillate.
I have my recipe for making absinthe on this forum some where if you're interested.
FYI, do not use common wormwood in your final maceration, use the roman wormwood or it will be way too bitter. I myself don't use any wormwood in the final maceration.
Hope this helps.
TS"
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Offline Squabble  
#15 Posted : Monday, February 01, 2010 11:02:34 PM(UTC)
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"this too has been confusing me about absinthe. i've read all the old recipes and they said that wine or brandy was used mostly. but then i read all over that you need a 45% abv or higher neutral spirit to use. then i read stuff like what you wrote, that i need something outrageously high proof to get started.

this is true too with what i've read concerning the soaking time. i've read 12 hours, 24 hours, 5 days, a week, two weeks, etc., etc. all i know is that the recipe i'm using now says to soak for 24 hrs. and i don't think it's working. it's certainly not producing a louche. but then the second herb soak i only do for 12 hours and it definitely imparts a pretty strong flavor.

i'd love to see and try your recipe if you care to share it!

thanks!

Originally Posted by: tikisteve Go to Quoted Post
I've made plenty of absinthe using all natural herbs, and it sounds like your first maceration isn't long enough. I let mine soak for at least 2 weeks,and then another 2 weeks for the 2nd maceration. From my research you need to also use a higher % of neutral spirit 150 proof or higher. If you don't macerate long enough your anise doesn't have time to totally break down, especially if using star anise, that is what effects your louche.
If you don't distill your own neutral spirits first, then go and buy some higher % sprits. I've heard of people using 151 rum. When I was experimenting with my flavors I actually used everclear instead of my own distillate.
I have my recipe for making absinthe on this forum some where if you're interested.
FYI, do not use common wormwood in your final maceration, use the roman wormwood or it will be way too bitter. I myself don't use any wormwood in the final maceration.
Hope this helps.
TS
"
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Offline mtnwalker2  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, February 02, 2010 3:59:30 AM(UTC)
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"Interesting article from Waljaco

An article on Absinthe (Scientific American, June 1989, pp112-117)
describes a 1855 recipe from Pontarlier, France. Here is a scaled down
version you can try:
Macerate 25g wormwood (Artemisia absinthium), 50g anise, and 50g
fennel (all finely divided) in 950ml 85%abv in a 2l flask. (Note: no
heat was specified for extraction). Add 450ml distilled water. Do a
pot still distillation, collecting 950ml of distillate. Separate 400ml
of the distillate, add 10g Roman wormwood (Artemisia pontica), 10g
hyssop, 5g lemon balm, and macerate at 60C. Filter and reunite with
the remaining 550ml and dilute to 74%abv to produce 1litre of
Absinthe. Note: I think you use crushed aniseed and fennel seed, as it
is the seed that has the strongest flavor. You can see that it is the
anise flavor that predominates.

Modern ""Pernod"" and ""Ricard"" are basically absinthes without the
wormwood. They are now known as a ""pastis"" (regional for ""melange"" or
mixture). As a substitute for wormwood, the modern drink uses
increased amounts of aniseed. Pernod includes aniseed, fennel, hyssop,
lemon balm along with lesser amounts of angelica root, star-anise,
dittany, juniper, nutmeg, veronica. Different absinthe manufacturers
used slightly different ingredients, sometimes using nutmeg and
calamus, both of which have purported psychoactive effects.

A bientot,
Wal"
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Offline mtnwalker2  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, February 02, 2010 5:41:04 AM(UTC)
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"Good imfo. for those interested. From Distillers site.


http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EF...TM/Absinthe/absinthe.doc"
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Offline Squabble  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, February 02, 2010 6:32:36 AM(UTC)
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i want that info but the link doesn't work! help!
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Offline mtnwalker2  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, February 02, 2010 6:58:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Squabble Go to Quoted Post
i want that info but the link doesn't work! help!


Just tried it. It worked fine for me. I got a open or save message, clicked open and no problem. Its a Word doc. You may have to right click it and then open with-- whatever word program you have? Not sure how other systems work."
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Offline tikisteve  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, February 02, 2010 8:44:57 AM(UTC)
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"In the question of the first maceration in the old recipes, they used a distillate made from wine which is basically brandy. Also, like mtnwalker said, make sure to use crushed anise seed and fennel seed, I also crush my star anise.
Remember, if you are looking for the psychoactive effects, the chemical thujone that is found in common wormwood, sage is known to have a higher level (up to 50% more). And again from what mtnwalker said, the other herbs have effects too.
Just, like making any liquor, patience is what makes a better product.

Here is the link to the recipe I used, click on it and page down to the message with the zip file. http://www.brewhausforum.com/showthread.php?t=1287 It's the 5th message on the page.
This recipe is very strong and eveytime I've shared a bottle with friends they have a great time but the next day they can't remember a thing.

Cheers!
TS"
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